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Grievous Angel wrote: DJ Hype ("allowed" to sample hip hop, but not allowed to sample reggae")

This is off the point but Hype DJ'd reggae for a time before jungle.

Bedward wrote:
btw: DMZ isn't just Digital Mystiks.

Alright smartypants, you clearly know lots and lots about dubstep, but I can still trump you - Mystikz not Mystiks

Rah rah rah, I am internet king of dubstepforum.

oh bum i forgot the "z."
now i am the laughing stock.
foiled!

yeah, i just said that cos i got the impression a couple of ppl were using dmz as shorthand for the digitall missticks when, in the context, loefah should not be forgot.
very rare he uses reggae reference points, innit?
"truly dread" is apt cos it's like he's saying,
although this sounds feck-all like reggae, it's still well dread.
and he's obv an archetypal dubstep creator.

Truly Dread is truly sick Bongo tracks rule

Jubscarz wrote:This is off the point but Hype DJ'd reggae for a time before jungle.

I thought it was all hip-hop, not reggae?

Bedward wrote:very rare he uses reggae reference points, innit?
"truly dread" is apt cos it's like he's saying,
although this sounds feck-all like reggae, it's still well dread.

Yes, he is truly dread while stylistically coming more from hip hop than reggae... but then again he's a fantastic reggae DJ.

To make a wider point, reggae is now the inheritance of all inner London youth, black and white. Everyone has a right to it.

Grievous Angel wrote:To make a wider point, reggae is now the inheritance of all inner London youth, black and white. Everyone has a right to it.

True but which musics can you say people don't have a right to. Can musical imperialism exist given the fact that its appreciation is universal.

Alex bk-bk wrote:too keen to apply specific contexts to a potentially more ambiguous music

you've hit a nail there, its a shame to see music that could be something new, weird and original being dragged back into an established context in a bid for authenticity or popularity


as to what was said about dub as process rather than style i think is well up for debate. i hear what i perceive to be the ethos of original dub masters in very very few producers, and in them its great, but theres no need for others to clamour for that (if they do).

Alex bk-bk wrote:my biggest concern is the closed data-loop issue. i like vocal music, i like the vocal tradition, and i want to see new ideas being coveyed this way, rather than just hearing not-very-subtly recontextualized old ones. But its becoming obvious that dubstep isn't the right music for this kind of expression, which may be why im losing touch with it.

i think there are two seperate issues in that paragraph, because while the (arguable) distancing of dubstep from vocal traditions (although cays cray, answer, jah war, do give me hope in that regard) is a part of the possible closed data-loop issue, its not the whole of it. it would be sad, and probably fatal to develop as a purely instrumental music, but open loop is needed in many regards.

elgato wrote:as to what was said about dub as process rather than style i think is well up for debate. i hear what i perceive to be the ethos of original dub masters in very very few producers, and in them its great, but theres no need for others to clamour for that (if they do).

do you mean ppl shouldn't clamour for the process?
cos i was saying more or less the same thing but about the surface of the music.
but that doesn't mean you have to pick either process or style.
there's plenty good dubstep that totally ignores any real or imagined dub connection.

the word "dubstep" is not an anatomy chart or a biological species classification.
choosing names for music genres is not really that scientific.
and also, "step" has more letters than "dub."

going back to loefah. he has used other rasta/reggae derived samples as well as truly dread, but they're always much more relevant than "hear dis" or something.
fearless and root come to mind, both have exquisite speech samples.
they don't need the source context as much as what's actually being said, combined with the new setting.
there's analogies being made, as well as tribute paid to an older scene.

however, indiscriminate use of random combinations of words like "soundboy," "selectah," "dubplate," "this sound," etc is really very cheesy now. i'd go along with the idea that fresh voices, live on the night, are far more enjoyable.

hmm, i seem to be saying nothing new here at all. oh well, i enjoyed it anyway.

Bedward wrote:do you mean ppl shouldn't clamour for the process?

i guess maybe i mean that ppl shouldnt confuse a deeper understanding of / feeling for a process or essense with the aesthetic that might accompany it... so i suppose im saying that throwing a delay on a guitar doesnt make you king tubby!

but im not 100% sure who im talking about... most of the top producers do their own thing, and do it well, it feels like im talking about a feeling that i get about where things might go, or little things that feel like theyre creeping in on the fringes

boomnoise wrote:

Grievous Angel wrote:To make a wider point, reggae is now the inheritance of all inner London youth, black and white. Everyone has a right to it.

True but which musics can you say people don't have a right to. Can musical imperialism exist given the fact that its appreciation is universal.

Its funny Funk Carioca is mentioned in the comments on Mudd Up. Them Rio kids leave any kind attempt to create a clear-cut analysis of the sampling of 'the other' in ruins.

In regards to 'truly dread' that sample is from Predator 2 yeah? which for me, at least, opens up an even bigger can of worms

doomstep wrote:In regards to 'truly dread' that sample is from Predator 2 yeah? which for me, at least, opens up an even bigger can of worms

Didn't see that coming

how do you mean ben?

for what its worth, its all about the way a sample is used, regardless of source for me, and I totally agree with previous posts that Loefahs execution nails it.

edit: and its congas in that tune innit? not bongos, or maybe its pitched down bongo sounds t sound like congas

doomstep wrote:how do you mean ben?

Just assumed it'd be from something JA

im my opinion i dislike short snippet samples saying stuff like "selaaaaaaaaaaaasi I" and "jaaaaaaaaaah rastafaaaaaaari!" as if these suddenly make it an 'authentic' track. i think quite often you can tell from the actual music itself, and the feeling it evokes, as to whether the producer has a true love and understanding for the roots, or just to try and get something that sounds "cool".

however to counter this, i'm quite a believer in the whole "If it sounds good then who cares" ethos.

yeh excuse silly post - its late

A jungle analogy:

Original Nuttah by Shy FX ruthlessly dominates any congo natty remix record. There is no contest, and that's why Original Nuttah still gets played like crazy, and reloaded, and played again. Because it's an original voicing, because he's saying 'bad boys inna London' and that is much more interesting and exciting. Not to mention of course that Shy FX is just basically a badman producer, but still.

Also, it's not expensive to voice people, it's difficult, frustrating and annoying, but doesnt need be expensive, especially in 2006 with all the cheap tech about.

And Anti War Dub has a credited vocalist and doesn't sound to me like a sample, and I think that's one of the things that makes it WAY better than many other tunes with reggae voices that are samples. It's evocation of London in-rave violence, dances getting shut down, etc. although more directly pertinent to the Grime scene, still resonates way more strongly for me than some sound clash sample.

mshadetek wrote:A jungle analogy:

Original Nuttah by Shy FX ruthlessly dominates any congo natty remix record. There is no contest, and that's why Original Nuttah still gets played like crazy, and reloaded, and played again. Because it's an original voicing, because he's saying 'bad boys inna London' and that is much more interesting and exciting. Not to mention of course that Shy FX is just basically a badman producer, but still.

Also, it's not expensive to voice people, it's difficult, frustrating and annoying, but doesnt need be expensive, especially in 2006 with all the cheap tech about.

And Anti War Dub has a credited vocalist and doesn't sound to me like a sample, and I think that's one of the things that makes it WAY better than many other tunes with reggae voices that are samples. It's evocation of London in-rave violence, dances getting shut down, etc. although more directly pertinent to the Grime scene, still resonates way more strongly for me than some sound clash sample.

great post matt. on the money for me, especially about antiwar dub. those words have meaning which sampled reggae voices don't. same goes for the other original voicings of dubstep tracks, even if they don't resonate quite so much. warrior queen and jme on skream are great examples.

burial's vocal samples work so well because they evoke something nebulous and suggestive. where as there is little ambiguity in the majority of HIM type samples.

But this isn't to say that it this sort of sampling isn't done well, it is. I think the problem comes when it's used frivolously.

I agree with Ramadan re: 'jah' and 'selassie I' samples thrown into tunes I think they rarely add an extra dimension and it seems a lazy way of name-checking that culture. Aside from that they have become so rinsed that they have become devoid of any meaning or real effect they may have once had.

Great thread

this ties in with a discussion i have with my flat mate regarding influences and sampling, i would go to him and show him say a photek beat or Vex'd bass, Mala shuffle and say this is it this is what i wanna sound like and whilst i could try to recreate their sound its still only ever gonna be a watered down version, theres two ways or going here, icould take there influence and inject into something new, or, the option which im more interested in, is to go back further and look at the roots of where these guys influences come from, ive discovered a wealth of artists this way, hope this ties in in some way

Following from boomnoise’s comments on burial, I think walking with jah is a similar example… the context in which the otherwise tired vocal sample is placed gives it new life and a degree of ambiguity, which makes it exciting or at least interesting again.

I still believe there is massive potential for sampled vocals, if executed sensitively and creatively… it would be to reject garage’s heritage to argue otherwise… see stone cold, dem2, todd edwards, all of those sick el-b remixes.

On a separate note, Ive been wondering where that vocalist Simba went… his voicings on the small number of ghost / post-garage tunes were incredible, it’d be amazing to hear him come back. There must be a great number of talented vocal artists in London though, so lets hope some people start getting involved