cadence, phrasing, and composition

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Postby drake89 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:05 pm

Do any of you all pay attention to the cadences you use to build phrases in your songs? Do any combinations work particularly well for certain situations, such as deceptive or authentic cadence right before a drop?

Also I've been wanting to have a go at some computer symphonic compositions- any of you all good at this or have any literature to recommend? Just something with advice on how different instruments play off one another and such. I think they sound really cool as intros. Like 16bit's (or is it bar9?) Classical.
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Postby GRAYSKALE » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:34 pm

drake89 wrote:Do any of you all pay attention to the cadences you use to build phrases in your songs? Do any combinations work particularly well for certain situations, such as deceptive or authentic cadence right before a drop?

Also I've been wanting to have a go at some computer symphonic compositions- any of you all good at this or have any literature to recommend? Just something with advice on how different instruments play off one another and such. I think they sound really cool as intros. Like 16bit's (or is it bar9?) Classical.


Get a book on music theory - I have a really good one - I think it's just called Music Theory, if it helps its pink. lol. I don't usually pay attention to cadences for drops but, I do when I make like call and response basslines and stuffs, IV to I is my favourite (haven't used the technical terms since music gcse exam, lol). Surprised there aren't more responses to this, it's a genuinely interesting question.
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Postby Manic Harmonic » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:43 pm

I agree on IV to I, especially if its a minor based chord progression I.e. "dark". Also V to I or a sharp or flatted I is killer for suspense. Listen to some death metal for inspiratiion on that
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Postby GRAYSKALE » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:48 pm

Manic Harmonic wrote:I agree on IV to I, especially if its a minor based chord progression I.e. "dark". Also V to I or a sharp or flatted I is killer for suspense. Listen to some death metal for inspiratiion on that


Yeah man - one of my old metal tricks was the classic route to flat second trick - after about a month of producing i realised fucking everybody uses it in dubstep too!!
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Postby drake89 » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:35 am

GRAYSKALE wrote:
Get a book on music theory - I have a really good one - I think it's just called Music Theory, if it helps its pink. lol. I don't usually pay attention to cadences for drops but, I do when I make like call and response basslines and stuffs, IV to I is my favourite (haven't used the technical terms since music gcse exam, lol). Surprised there aren't more responses to this, it's a genuinely interesting question.


prolly cuz hardly anyone on here knows shiete about theory. guess that's why it's dubstep forum and not chamber_orchestra forum :mrgreen:

but i'll try the IV to aug/dim I

seen people on DOA call it dumbstep which pisses me off, and im not one to be trolled easily.

edit: talk nerdy to me ;-) 8)
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Postby ambinate » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:57 am

drake89 wrote:Do any of you all pay attention to the cadences you use to build phrases in your songs? Do any combinations work particularly well for certain situations, such as deceptive or authentic cadence right before a drop?


something kind of interesting i've noticed is that a shitload of tunes in minor keys will use the major VII to the minor i as their cadence, which doesn't happen a whole lot in orchestral music starting with the baroque times. also, this isn't a cadence, but a similarly huge amount go from the minor i to the major VI for the first part of their phrase.

i try and pay attention to this sort of stuff when i'm writing, but i dunno if i've found any particular cadences that work really well every time...as long as you've got some unresolved leading tones in there just before the drop, you're on the right track.
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Postby 222sucram » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:49 am

ambinate wrote:
drake89 wrote:Do any of you all pay attention to the cadences you use to build phrases in your songs? Do any combinations work particularly well for certain situations, such as deceptive or authentic cadence right before a drop?


something kind of interesting i've noticed is that a shitload of tunes in minor keys will use the major VII to the minor i as their cadence, which doesn't happen a whole lot in orchestral music starting with the baroque times. also, this isn't a cadence, but a similarly huge amount go from the minor i to the major VI for the first part of their phrase.

i try and pay attention to this sort of stuff when i'm writing, but i dunno if i've found any particular cadences that work really well every time...as long as you've got some unresolved leading tones in there just before the drop, you're on the right track.


There are two reasons why alot of producers use major 7th to the tonic. it is because what defines a minor key is a sharpened 7th. For example E flat majors relative minor is C minor, if you take what notes are flattened in E flat major you get E flat, A flat and B flat. However in C minor the B flat is augmented to B natural.

Also the 7th of a scale's proper name is the "leading note" which means (according to bach's rules of harmony) it must always rise up to the root note of the scale.

In terms of cadences that work well to build suspense. An imperfect cadence that returns to the tonic. E.G. start with chord I, then have a long sustained chord V before returning to chord I. Another is chord IV - I which is called a plagal cadence it sounds alot like amen so i guess thats why it was used in alot of baroque music. Phyrigian cadences are good to, but they are too long winded to explain in this post.

Lastly a good chord progression to use is the circle of fiths, because it has a very rounded structure that always leads back to the tonic or can lead to a note that is related to the tonic. A circle of 5ths in C major would go like this C-G-D-A-E-B-F-C, also it doesn't have to stay in one octave it can jump about a bit. Another version of the circle 5ths that is used a bit is when it starts on the 5th and rises by 4ths so in C major it would go like G-C-F-B-E-A-D-G.

To alot of people that may have just been a load of incoherent shit, but if you have a keyboard with you it is very simple to work out chords, cadences and progressions just by counting up from the Tonic note. Hope this helps.
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Postby ambinate » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:05 am

222sucram wrote:
ambinate wrote:
drake89 wrote:Do any of you all pay attention to the cadences you use to build phrases in your songs? Do any combinations work particularly well for certain situations, such as deceptive or authentic cadence right before a drop?


something kind of interesting i've noticed is that a shitload of tunes in minor keys will use the major VII to the minor i as their cadence, which doesn't happen a whole lot in orchestral music starting with the baroque times. also, this isn't a cadence, but a similarly huge amount go from the minor i to the major VI for the first part of their phrase.

i try and pay attention to this sort of stuff when i'm writing, but i dunno if i've found any particular cadences that work really well every time...as long as you've got some unresolved leading tones in there just before the drop, you're on the right track.


There are two reasons why alot of producers use major 7th to the tonic. it is because what defines a minor key is a sharpened 7th. For example E flat majors relative minor is C minor, if you take what notes are flattened in E flat major you get E flat, A flat and B flat. However in C minor the B flat is augmented to B natural.

Also the 7th of a scale's proper name is the "leading note" which means (according to bach's rules of harmony) it must always rise up to the root note of the scale.


haha, i think we're on the same page here, actually. maybe i should have been more clear - when i said the "major VII," what i was referring to was the natural, diatonic VII chord in minor (with the unsharpened 7th degree as the root). in c minor, that'd be a b-flat major chord, which doesn't have the leading tone in it. this to me is interesting because it gets rid of all that tension that you typically hear that you were talking about with leading tones and bach-style harmony. you're right, though, about all of that - i just find it interesting that a lot of producers ignore that leading tone-tonic relationship by using the diatonic 7th-scale degree chord in a minor key.
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Postby 222sucram » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:25 am

ambinate wrote:
222sucram wrote:
ambinate wrote:
drake89 wrote:Do any of you all pay attention to the cadences you use to build phrases in your songs? Do any combinations work particularly well for certain situations, such as deceptive or authentic cadence right before a drop?


something kind of interesting i've noticed is that a shitload of tunes in minor keys will use the major VII to the minor i as their cadence, which doesn't happen a whole lot in orchestral music starting with the baroque times. also, this isn't a cadence, but a similarly huge amount go from the minor i to the major VI for the first part of their phrase.

i try and pay attention to this sort of stuff when i'm writing, but i dunno if i've found any particular cadences that work really well every time...as long as you've got some unresolved leading tones in there just before the drop, you're on the right track.


There are two reasons why alot of producers use major 7th to the tonic. it is because what defines a minor key is a sharpened 7th. For example E flat majors relative minor is C minor, if you take what notes are flattened in E flat major you get E flat, A flat and B flat. However in C minor the B flat is augmented to B natural.

Also the 7th of a scale's proper name is the "leading note" which means (according to bach's rules of harmony) it must always rise up to the root note of the scale.


haha, i think we're on the same page here, actually. maybe i should have been more clear - when i said the "major VII," what i was referring to was the natural, diatonic VII chord in minor (with the unsharpened 7th degree as the root). in c minor, that'd be a b-flat major chord, which doesn't have the leading tone in it. this to me is interesting because it gets rid of all that tension that you typically hear that you were talking about with leading tones and bach-style harmony. you're right, though, about all of that - i just find it interesting that a lot of producers ignore that leading tone-tonic relationship by using the diatonic 7th-scale degree chord in a minor key.


Okay i thought you where just talking about a single note in a melody rather than chords.

Yeah alot of jazz music uses the diatonic 7th in a minor key it guess it just makes it sound more ambiguous. But Its also popular because its basically chord V7 without a root note eg B flat major = BDF, G7 = GBDF. It's funny how music theory is meant to teach you about how structured and thought out things like harmony are, and its only when you do learn about harmony that you realise pretty much anything goes.
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Postby Manic Harmonic » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:57 am

another cool trick, you can use a diminished chord on any note that's not in the scale you're using, which is basically a standard minor 3rd chord except with a flatted 5th. so you could use a pad with that chord, my favorite would be once again flatting the root note but instead using a diminished chord or even a lead going down the diminished scale. if that doesn't make any sense, maybe someone else can explain it better. i learned my theory about 8 years ago so i don't really remember all the proper terms or how to fully explain it. i will be brushing up on my music theory in a few months 8)
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Postby Alby D » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:16 am

222sucram wrote:
There are two reasons why alot of producers use major 7th to the tonic. it is because what defines a minor key is a sharpened 7th. For example E flat majors relative minor is C minor, if you take what notes are flattened in E flat major you get E flat, A flat and B flat. However in C minor the B flat is augmented to B natural.



Not to be a smart arse, just so people reading this don't get confused: Minor keys actually have a flattened 7th. The 7th of C major is B, so you flatten it to B flat in the key of C minor. The notes of a major scale and its relative minor are exactly the same.
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Postby Morrello » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:12 am

yup, if there was a B natural in there it would be the c harmonic minor scale and it's the 3rd that defines whether the chord is minor or not.
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Postby 222sucram » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:15 am

Morrello wrote:yup, if there was a B natural in there it would be the c harmonic minor scale and it's the 3rd that defines whether the chord is minor or not.


Yeah was about to say about the harmonics scale. I wasn't talking about if a chords major or minor, i was refering to what makes a scale major or minor.
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Postby drake89 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:03 am

IIRC there are differences between ascending and descending minor scales. AMIRITE?
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Postby nowaysj » Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:18 am

Would be interested in a post regarding phyrigian cadences.
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Postby Alby D » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:44 pm

222sucram wrote:
Morrello wrote:yup, if there was a B natural in there it would be the c harmonic minor scale and it's the 3rd that defines whether the chord is minor or not.


Yeah was about to say about the harmonics scale. I wasn't talking about if a chords major or minor, i was refering to what makes a scale major or minor.


Natural minor scale: flat 3rd, flat 6th, flat 7th

Harmonic minor: flat 3rd, flat 6th
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Postby mks » Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:26 pm

nowaysj wrote:Would be interested in a post regarding phyrigian cadences.


If you are on the 3rd, you can turn it into a secondary dominant by temporarily raising it's 3rd so that it becomes the dominant chord to the 6th. The 6th as a secondary dominant becomes dominant to the II which is the secondary dominant to the V which of course is the main dominant of the I, the tonic.

This is used in jazz all of the time. In fact there are a lot of tunes built off of this progression.

So, if you are in the key of C and start on the phrygian of that key which would be the 3rd, the E you would have a progression that would go like this:

Em - E7 - Am - A7 - Dm - D7 - G7 - C

Essentially it is iii - vi - ii - V - I with temporary passing notes that will act as a secondary dominant to the next chord.
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Postby nowaysj » Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:35 pm

-q-
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Postby GRAYSKALE » Wed Jun 29, 2011 9:43 pm

nowaysj wrote:Would be interested in a post regarding phyrigian cadences.


Whenever i read a thread about music theory, i swear you always pop up an start biggin up phrygian, lol.

You like that mode yeah? :lol:
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Postby SunkLo » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:09 am

What's not to love? Has all the dark altered notes but still maintains the stability of the natural 5^. Locrian's too dissonant in a lot of cases. Not to mention Phrygian is the 5^ of Aeolian. Easy to make progressions that have a lot of minor tonality.
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