Just getting in the habit of bouncing, couple Q's

[Sinergy]

My biggest struggle with production at this point is finishing tracks, and being able to step away and say I've done enough without sort of "picking at" my tracks for weeks on end.

Working in ableton, and having a relatively large amount of memory, I have been able to work in midi almost entirely since i began producing, I think it may be possible that this working in midi has screwed up my workflow to never finish things, or "commit" to parts of a track.

My first question.

Do you keep a second copy of a track in midi for later in case you really do need to change something? or is that just defeating the purpose? I would want to do this so I can look at notes and whatnot, because in audio I cannot see the notes and I do not have an ear that can simply pick them out.

Secondly, the waveform. I'm not used to seeing waveforms so I'm not really sure what to expect from them.

For instance, I flattened a lead bass synth I created, and it looks like a block, like a SOLID block, big 'ol rectangle. In alarm, I hit undo and turned down the compressor, no difference, turned off the compressor, still no difference in the waveform, still a block. is this normal?

Also, I created a kick drum in massive, and it's a pretty damn fat kick drum i think, but when I flattened it, it looks rather puny and does not reach zero. I know that things should be mixed at like -6 or -8db for mastering reasons, but should the kick waveform be bigger and reach zero like a lot of samples i've seen in waveform? Also, this guy talks about it but i'm not sure if he knows what he's doing because he is comparing mastered track to projects that *should* sit at -6 or -8db

link:

Any other tips or tricks (or just advantages) of working in audio within ableton would be appreciated, I need some incentive to make the jump...

Thanks.

[Crimsonghost]

A little trick that i use when i bounce down is to just grab a random instrument (or even just insert a midi track) and draw the notes in. I just keep it sitting next to the bounce that way i have a reference that i can always look at. Doesnt take up much (if any) cpu.

As far as your waveforms go, you just have to get used to zooming in really close to tell what youre looking at. Takes practice, but its not that hard.

[Sinergy]

Ahh, i'll do that to keep track of notes.

But the waveform, I meant like, they do give a graphical representation of dynamics right? So if all my synths look like massive blocks, doesn't that mean i'm overcompressing? Cause I removed all compressors and it was still a block after flattening....

[Benji]

I try to bounce stuff as close to 0db as I can without clipping and basses usually tend to look like blocks, and that's with no compression, so I'm guessing it's normal. If I bounce basses at like -14db they look like 'normal' waveforms.

[efence]

Ahh, i'll do that to keep track of notes.

But the waveform, I meant like, they do give a graphical representation of dynamics right? So if all my synths look like massive blocks, doesn't that mean i'm overcompressing? Cause I removed all compressors and it was still a block after flattening....

If your putting distortion on the look like bricks. If their is no dynamics(attack/decay) then the will be bricks, if there is no modulation(phasing,flanging, unison) then it will look like a brick.

Don't worry how it looks.

[Bass_Jacka]

When I'm bouncing midi tracks down as audio I'll always save the synth patch and the midi parts and keep them in my project folder. Then I delete that synth out of project to keep it from getting cluttered. That way you have a nice clean sequencer to work in and you still have the midi parts and the patch should you wish to go back in and edit the midi parts or sound design.

As Crimsonghost said, have another midi track, doesn't need to be routed to any synth, and have the midi parts for the audio you just bounced sitting above or below the new audio track - that way if you need to add other synths/sounds to compliment the one you just bounced, you have the notes there in front of you for reference.

In regards to the waveform, whenever I bounce midi down as audio, i always get a clean looking wave form; never just a solid block. Maybe try turning the levels down a bit so that you get a more definied waveform.

A good thing about working in audio is that you have the ability to easily cut up/chop/rearrange your bass/leads etc. If your waveform is a solid block, I should imagine that this would be difficult as you wont be able to see where the different notes are hitting etc.

This was probably no help to you at all, but this is my input! Ya get me!

[Electric_Head]

I don't think midi is the factor here.
Force yourself to complete tracks.

[Bass_Jacka]

OP was asking for advice on MIDI in terms of bouncing down as audio, of which I gave him my 2 cents.

In terms of completing a track, I agree this could be the factor here.

Sinergy, there's various threads on techniques you can use to help yourself actually finish tracks. Not knowing where to go with track, or how to fill in those gaps between the 8-bar loops you've created can be fucking frustrating! Best way I find to complete a track is to work out a basic structure of the track and use markers to mark where each section should start/finish, I use Cubase so have no idea how to do this in other daws. It always helps me to actually have a visual reference as to what parts of a track should be where. Most of the time I'll construct the main part of a track and the rest of it just flows from there. For intros, breakdowns, breaks, buildups etc, just add/remove certain elements of the track. Obviously this is all basic, but just my method of actually completing a track.

Saying that, it's not often I get to actually finish a track due to having a 5 month old baby and a nagging missus on me case! She seems to want to ask me a pointless question everytime I get into the zone and start geting shit down! Does my fucking head in!! Irrelevant rant, but thought I'd divulge!

[Electric_Head]

I wasn't debating anyone's points BJ.

Just stating my own.

[Bass_Jacka]

I didn't think you was EH. Always keen to listen to your points, they tend to not be sarky like most of the other regular posters on here!

[Sinergy]

When I'm bouncing midi tracks down as audio I'll always save the synth patch and the midi parts and keep them in my project folder. Then I delete that synth out of project to keep it from getting cluttered. That way you have a nice clean sequencer to work in and you still have the midi parts and the patch should you wish to go back in and edit the midi parts or sound design.

As Crimsonghost said, have another midi track, doesn't need to be routed to any synth, and have the midi parts for the audio you just bounced sitting above or below the new audio track - that way if you need to add other synths/sounds to compliment the one you just bounced, you have the notes there in front of you for reference.

In regards to the waveform, whenever I bounce midi down as audio, i always get a clean looking wave form; never just a solid block. Maybe try turning the levels down a bit so that you get a more definied waveform.

A good thing about working in audio is that you have the ability to easily cut up/chop/rearrange your bass/leads etc. If your waveform is a solid block, I should imagine that this would be difficult as you wont be able to see where the different notes are hitting etc.

This was probably no help to you at all, but this is my input! Ya get me!

helpful

I don't think midi is the factor here.
Force yourself to complete tracks.

not helpful

[fragments]

^it might be helpful if you stopped and thought about whether or not "committing" via bouncing to audio is going to solve the problem or not.

That being said....ever since I started bouncing things to audio ASAP I find I complete things more often and that they are better quality. I do save many versions of my project files so I can go back if I need to (usually don't).

I love getting my raw arrangement (in audio) set up in my DAW and chopping shit up--makes it really easy to add variation and keep elements interesting without a ton of FX and automation that will likely just muddy shit up.

EDIT: What wave forms look like doesn't really matter in my opinion. Not directed right at you OP, but I don't get the obsession with what wave forms look like. Use yer damn ears...it's music! : )

[titchbit]

Didn't read all the replies, so I might be repeating something:

1) When I resample, I usually do it in groups, like several MIDI tracks at a time. After resampling, I've got both the MIDI track and the new audio wave in Ableton. Then I close Ableton and find the project in Finder. Then I duplicate the project and rename the first one "Project x with old MIDI" or rename the new one "Project x with resampled audio" or something like that. This way Ableton isn't cluttered with duplicates of every track, but I can still go back to the MIDI if I really have to. This also has the added benefit of being able to delete extraneous tracks you might have in the project but aren't using in this particular song, and like them and want to keep them. This way you can keep them in the old project along with the pre-resampled MIDI tracks if you want to go back and use them in the future, but they aren't cluttering up Ableton's session view and hindering your workflow.

2) you're obviously looking at a pretty long waveform. if you simply zoom in, you will be able to see what it really looks like.

3) not exactly sure what you're trying to ask with the mixing techniques and that youtube video... if you want to elaborate maybe I could give more help.

anyway, good luck m8

[Electric_Head]

When I'm bouncing midi tracks down as audio I'll always save the synth patch and the midi parts and keep them in my project folder. Then I delete that synth out of project to keep it from getting cluttered. That way you have a nice clean sequencer to work in and you still have the midi parts and the patch should you wish to go back in and edit the midi parts or sound design.

As Crimsonghost said, have another midi track, doesn't need to be routed to any synth, and have the midi parts for the audio you just bounced sitting above or below the new audio track - that way if you need to add other synths/sounds to compliment the one you just bounced, you have the notes there in front of you for reference.

In regards to the waveform, whenever I bounce midi down as audio, i always get a clean looking wave form; never just a solid block. Maybe try turning the levels down a bit so that you get a more definied waveform.

A good thing about working in audio is that you have the ability to easily cut up/chop/rearrange your bass/leads etc. If your waveform is a solid block, I should imagine that this would be difficult as you wont be able to see where the different notes are hitting etc.

This was probably no help to you at all, but this is my input! Ya get me!

helpful

I don't think midi is the factor here.
Force yourself to complete tracks.

not helpful

WTF???
Are you confusing a conversation with an argument?
Myself and Bass Jacka were having a simple discussion.
I was in the same position as you a few years back.
I sat down and forced myself to finish the parts I was working on.
Bouncing stems won't change your inability to finish tracks, it's a mindset change.

Just because you don't understand my statement does not mean it was not helpful.

[Bass_Jacka]

It is true that sometimes we must force ourselves to complete a track, well it's true for me anyway.

BUT, I sometimes think that if you have to force yourself to complete a track, you're obviously not feeling it and will end up with a track that drives you mad to listen to once it's finished.

However, as Fragments said, working in audio can help you finish a track. I've always worked in midi. All my basslines, leads, drums etc - all midi - except risers, vocals etc. I recently hit a block and couldn't get much further than creating a shitty beat and laying down a few chords - I started working with all my drums in audio and it's helped my workflow a hell of a lot! I find it so much better actually being able to see all the different drum hits and where they are in relation to the other. It also makes it easier to apply env's to certain hits, velocity variation is easier too.

I think there's plenty of other ways to help improve your workflow and actually get tracks finished.

[Electric_Head]

I don't mean force as in you feel forced.
I mean don't get stuck in the myriad of technicalities.