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by **hedfukkah** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:46 pm

The sound is now crossing over. I've just read the Rusko and Caspa article in the metro and it highlights the new trends in dubstep's commercial sound.

The Klaxon's turning up to FWD along with a host of Nu-Rave kids...

Skins using dubstep for their teenage parties...

Skream remixing the Klaxons...

Dubplate Drama getting Tempa onboard for the soundtrack of a Hollyoaks inspired urban soap.

I know the indie crossover has been well talked about before with some people embracing the day-glow clothes and androgynous eyeliner whilst others are quick to turn on a grime like angst against a clownstep type sound popular with the Hoxton/Shoreditch students.

Tempa are of course the reason behind the crossover. The Nu-Rave kids bring the money to FWD and Sarah and co are lining their pockets so are happy. They may have earnt the right to make some Euros off the back of their early work at the expense of diversity and originality but as their empire grows and becomes what dubstep is to the masses the fringe artists and new sounds are getting overlooked and sidelined.

We have seen dubstep sample packs with 100 wobbles and halfstep drum loops and loads of copies of the big few's sound over the last year and this is only going to increase as the Nathan Barley's take over.....Who is ready for a dubstep track written by Howard Moon in the Mighty Boosh with Vince Noir making shapes to an LFO wobble???

Dubstep from day one was diversity and the Caspa/Rusko article finishes by stating that the rule is a bassline around 140bpm and the rest is up to the producer but by definition the name DUBstep means that a ragga stab/vocal is the sample of choice.

The deep, darker, heavier, whatever side now has plenty of producers working with original and diverse sounds. The hardstep (dnb type) sound usually gets a kicking on here for being angsty with the detractors usually citing Skream as darker than thou (because real darkness doesn't have to be hard or whatever)...Obviously this sound is present with lots of producers adopting it but it is not everyones taste and the haters have their say LOUD! It is currently well in the underground in the same way 'dubstep' was back in 2001 during the Grime explosion.

This fringe d*bstep sound is often maginalized with labels like Urban Graffiti, Rottun, Combat etc... reaching as many electronica, metal, dnb ears as the dubstep community. Look at how many hits an Urban Graffiti/Combat radio show gets on here compared to a big boy Rinse show for evidence. I cannot speak for the sales as well but i'm sure the evidence would be there as well.

Everyone is against sub-genrefication and new titles as this is all just music anyway and genres are the music industires way of selling us records (or whatever!) but it must be evident that the scene is crossing over and becoming stuck because of the cliched dubstep tag that tempa has put on the sound.

I know Combat distances itself from the dubstep tag largely and it has lots of success in lots of genres as a result is it now time for the fringe elements to return to the Underground Garage tag and let the Tempa empire, crossed over Nu-Dubstep reach it's fad like natural conclusion and burn out in a wobble?

If there are no distinctions between clownstep wobbles and complex diverse beats as they are all known as dubstep this is only going to hold each sound back with confusion and expectations.

by **elgato** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:55 pm

HEDFUKKAH wrote:is it now time for the fringe elements to return to the Underground Garage tag

feel that

by **jolly wailer** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:58 pm

mods please delete....

I mean how are we supposed to reply to this?...

Skream remixing the Klaxons is so totally three months ago.. shit, dubstep has already moved on and is occupying new terrains other than the ones you're describing - your summation of the "scene" or what Tempa is doing totally needs a late pass... done and done and history. check the Kode9 b2b flying lotus set - no neon-clad androgeny to be found there.. just realistically checkout all the fucking music seething throughout his site, your overgeneralizations are way off base... thefuckoutahere

by **hedfukkah** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:06 pm

Did you not understand?

I said that loads of people are creating diverse stuff but it is swamped by expectation of what dubstep SHOULD sound like by a misinformed public which is growing due to the crossover appeal of a section of the sound.

Hence the newer and heavier tracks (check the dubs section or SUB FM for evidence) are not getting a look in and therefore the Underground Garage tag which started THIS sound off should be readopted to avoid confusion and genrefication.

Give the new and fringe artists the space they need to work in without the dubstep tag haunting them.

If you go to FWD you will notice what the demographic is by the way. As you are in South Korea this may be hard but read the thread about the warehouse party and you will get the idea....
http://dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31959&highlight=warehouse

by **xor** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:19 pm

HEDFUKKAH wrote:is it now time for the fringe elements to return to the Underground Garage tag

The tag Garage was always confusing to me though, what with Garage Rock, US Disco Garage...and some UK punk & post-punk bands being tagged as Garage too. I think Dubstep is a great term and vaguely descriptive enough to cover all bases.

Adverts and tv serials use Autechre-esque abstract electronic tracks and no one bats an eyelid now...and electronica of this sort has remained on the fringes. No reason to think Dubstep will be any different...until it starts conforming to popular-vocal-song-structures that don't turn-off the (easily deterred) mainstream.

by **jolly wailer** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:29 pm

dude don't try to school me on what is and what isn't based on what you see from my present location.. I know enough about this shit than to have you convince me that all of a sudden dubstepforum.com is going to be underground-garridge.co.ck... and you're talking about avoiding confusion???

thing is, there's been months and months of these same fear-mongering protectionist diatribe posts talking about what is and what is not right for the dubstep scene because of who is or who is not showing up at dubstep nights.. yours just happens to use examples and argumentative ammunition that draws from happenings that came and went - the klaxons are old news, take it easy

by **thinking** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:33 pm

too much talk, not enough action.

scene's aren't shaped by message boards, they're shaped by the producers, DJs, ravers and record-buyers. Complain about this or that direction as much as you like, dream up new sub-genres, it won't do shit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in love with 100% of dubstep these days, and there are a few too many tourists for my liking, but that's just my bad luck. :arrow:

by **bunzer0** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:36 pm

ThinKing wrote:too much talk, not enough action.

by **numaestro** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:36 pm

ThinKing wrote:too much talk, not enough action.

scene's aren't shaped by message boards, they're shaped by the producers, DJs, ravers and record-buyers. Complain about this or that direction as much as you like, dream up new sub-genres, it won't do shit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in love with 100% of dubstep these days, and there are a few too many tourists for my liking, but that's just my bad luck.

True

by **jamie** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:47 pm

Sorry but... duh. This is the music industry which is currently falling on its fucking knees. What else do you expect when something 'new' comes along which is popular? All the business heads to leave it alone - or pay (what people perceive) to be a decent amount of money to start producing more crossover tracks to bring all the band-wagon-jumping-00s-scene-kids-because-theres-nothing-original-anymore and their middle class wallets into the shops?

You may listen to dubstep for the love, your best mate who makes heavy beats may do it for the love but the people with the money to put his dubs on vinyl then do all the PR are there on a profit tip cos of the amount they need to put up to get to this point. There's a few people in this scene doing big things for not much return apart from respect and coverage - but its a minority for sure...

Who is ready for a dubstep track written by Howard Moon in the Mighty Boosh with Vince Noir making shapes to an LFO wobble???

I am SO fucking ready for this...would be the best boosh ep ever...

by **hedfukkah** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:02 pm

I think there is plenty of action by individuals.

Labels e.g Rottun are pushing the sound with mixes and releases.

Artists and crews are battering the outsider radio station with new dubs without a quarter of the recognition of the Rinse crew.

Prodcuers are making bare tracks which on the whole manage a few comments on the dubs section or a couple of plays on SUB/React/etc.... and then are gone with no release because the bigger labels have their sound and stick to it and the smaller labels don't have the money to put out everything they want.

People are trying but no one has the dosh to launch a major PR and marketing campaign to help create a new wave so individuals struggle by themselves.

Fair play to Platform 1 and GetDarker both of which have pushed new artists with Platform 1 not afriad to try something new but i think the problem lies with the name dubstep and what it means outside of the hardcore listeners.

Nothing purist about it either. I remember hard graft and the SLT grime launch sets and the sound has evolved and moved on from there. It is the Hardstep sounds which seem to frustrate the purists the most looking back at any 'dark' thread from the past 2 years will confirm this.

Skream is entitled to remix indie bands the same as Tempa are entitled to book Funky House for FWD and some people may agree whilst others disagree.

Maybe the problem lies in the fact that a lot of the newer 'fans' have come from Techno/DnB backgrounds so as Jolly Wailer identifies Garage is no longer the influence that it was at the start....The tempos are similar but really Bassline/Niche has inherited the Garage crown more than dubstep these days. A lot of people with a lot of influences are describing their sound as Dubstep and this may be to their detriment.

Of course people will like some stuff and hate other stuff but my point is the lack of definition is bringing some artists and shows down.

People will listen to Rinse for Dubstep but if there was a new sound called (insert new name here) that they know a different artist is doing they may well tune in to check it out rather than thinking 'oh another dubstep show'.

Also the media will be like 'dubstep' yes i know that sound lets do an article on *insert big name* but if they heard of a new sound (the media like to be cool and jump on a bandwagon) then new artists will get the exposure rather than the same names...not denying those big names coverage as they will still be the dubstep connection.

The problem is there isn't an infrustrucre in place as there is within the Tempa community (to their credit) and as a result the different sounds are getting drowned out under the Tempa invented Dubstep tag.

I remember a LONG time ago (i think on dubplate.net or maybe dubstep.forumspace.com) one of the members of Random Trio stating that dubstep was a specific sound that only them, DMZ and someone else was doing (at the time, halfstep beats and one note basslines) but this term has now grown as an umbrella tag for such a diverse array of sounds that it is difficult to be seen with the big boys dominating as much as with dnb and their sound going as the standard.

by **Whistla** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:12 pm

i think people will find there is lots of "action" going on in terms of new tunes and diversity, but the problem is that (as hedfukkah says) these newbie punters have an expectation of "dubstep" in that it will be dubby and wobbly and what not. which is all well and good if it earns the venue owner / label / dj £ etc, good on em!
but i do toatlly see where headfukkah is coming from, essentially the music that got me into this sound has been pushed to the periphery so much so that to actually hear it out it a club the only real choice is Platform 1 or room 2 in House Party, and they are BOTH SICK NIGHTS! and i love em to bits, but does this mean that the music of which i speak is the new sound of london?

by **sand leaper** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:22 pm

ThinKing wrote:scene's aren't shaped by message boards

Come on now. Message boards are one of the biggest means of promotion there is, especially for a small scene like this. For instance, about a month ago, a person from Contagious Recs. made a poll asking what MRK1 tune that this forum should be remade for 2007, and then passed the result on to MRK1 afterwards.

Public opinion shapes scenes, and public opinion is exactly what you get on message boards.

by **pete bubonic** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:29 pm

Man I hate it when misinformed brehs make decsions about what the scene 'needs' to do.

HEDFUKKAH wrote: but by definition the name DUBstep means that a ragga stab/vocal is the sample of choice.

Wrong.

By definition (and the point of the name) is that it was dub version of tracks, ie: no vocals. The dub/reggae is taken only because
1/ people don't know their history
2/ too many big names rely on the universal liking of reggae/dancehall and rinse the samples in their productions.

Don't get it twisted, I agree about leftfield people getting marginalised (they have done since the dubstep scene formed). But spreading misinformation on a message board int going to make a difference. Getting to nights like Platform 1, Ruffnek Discotek, Ruffage, paying for releases by labels like Hessle, Punch Drunk, Werk and Boka is what is going to make the difference. Not posting about it on a message board.

by **Whistla** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:31 pm

HEDFUKKAH wrote:.....

Maybe the problem lies in the fact that a lot of the newer 'fans' have come from Techno/DnB backgrounds so as Jolly Wailer identifies Garage is no longer the influence that it was at the start....The tempos are similar but really Bassline/Niche has inherited the Garage crown more than dubstep these days. A lot of people with a lot of influences are describing their sound as Dubstep and this may be to their detriment.

....

the different sounds are getting drowned out under the Tempa invented Dubstep tag.

....

yeh i think "dub"step is a confusing term for a lot of people and is slightly mis-leading.
to me the "dub" in dubstep refered to the "dubs" of garage tracks, rather than dub (reggae influenced) music.
this now seems to be the other way round.

by **jolly wailer** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:31 pm

dude so start a label then..

and I'm obviously one of the "newer" fans (because you say so - without having any idea of where my musical tastes lie) and of course I have no idea of garage's (2-step's) influence on where dubstep came from... of course, I have no idea where dubstep came from, it all started with cockney thug right?? :roll:

fact is.. the sound that falls under the banner of dubstep now-adays.. particularly the "over-looked" sounds that you are describing, are so so far away from the garage sound you wish to harken back to and are in fact moreso derivitive more from the more and more specialized sound of what counts as dubstep, darkness, half time mood step - not a bad thing in and of itself but certainly not anywhere near garage or either anywhere near the sortof klaxons-step that your OG post set out trying to ward against.. I really don't understand what all this shit you're chatting is supposed to lead to - you have multiple thoughts and argument lines going at once, trying to say that all the overlooked producers should start going back to garage to avoid some new flock of music fans that are bound to misunderstand their intentions.. its practicaly impossible to understand what you are actually talking about.. OK so music changes over time, and yes, the people that are drawn into a music change over time.. sooooo.. ??? whats your point?

so the real sound is pushed to the periphery.. did you ever REALLY want it to be pushed to the center?? (it would seem that no one EVER wants ANYONE else to like THEIR cherished music) - ... sooo.. find the shit you like, find a night that plays it, and keep it a secret.. problem solved.. if undesirable people are flooding what is now a undesirable genre, why bother posting about it on the net.. keep it all to yourself, and enjoy it alone

by **daggus** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:34 pm

Jolly Wailer wrote:thing is, there's been months and months of these same fear-mongering protectionist diatribe posts talking about what is and what is not right for the dubstep scene

exactly far too many ppl on this forum an the internet in general seem to think that posting on a forum legitimises their opinions no matter how stupid or irrelavent they are. The endless self-reflective bullshit debate thats been goin on for months is gettin very OLD.

Personally feel that the way the scene is progressing is largely out of this forum & most peoples hands. As a few sensible heads have pointed out tryin to divide an conquer or hate on stuff isnt worth it. Just make sure you support what you into as much as you can.

I'd much rather support the dj's, producers & nights i'm into by turning up, buyin records , booking people & shamelessly biggin them up when i get a chance.

Nothing lasts forever so i'd prefer to enjoy some of the excellent music thats still comin out, instead of goin round in circles of debate on ere

by **Whistla** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:35 pm

pete bubonic wrote:Man I hate it when misinformed brehs make decsions about what the scene 'needs' to do.

HEDFUKKAH wrote: but by definition the name DUBstep means that a ragga stab/vocal is the sample of choice.

Wrong.

By definition (and the point of the name) is that it was dub version of tracks, ie: no vocals. The dub/reggae is taken only because
1/ people don't know their history
2/ too many big names rely on the universal liking of reggae/dancehall and rinse the samples in their productions.

Don't get it twisted, I agree about leftfield people getting marginalised (they have done since the dubstep scene formed). But spreading misinformation on a message board int going to make a difference. Getting to nights like Platform 1, Ruffnek Discotek, Ruffage, paying for releases by labels like Hessle, Punch Drunk, Werk and Boka is what is going to make the difference. Not posting about it on a message board.

i think hedfukkah meant that to a newbie punter who doesnt know there history etc they will assume that dubstep is a kind of dub/reggae
also
i think a bit of healthy discussion on this is valid considering its what heaps of people talk about at nights themselves, and this forum does tend to reflect the mood of the "scene" "movement" "whatever you call it"

by **hedfukkah** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:37 pm

pete bubonic wrote:Man I hate it when misinformed brehs make decsions about what the scene 'needs' to do.

HEDFUKKAH wrote: but by definition the name DUBstep means that a ragga stab/vocal is the sample of choice.

Wrong.

By definition (and the point of the name) is that it was dub version of tracks, ie: no vocals. The dub/reggae is taken only because
1/ people don't know their history
2/ too many big names rely on the universal liking of reggae/dancehall and rinse the samples in their productions.

Don't get it twisted, I agree about leftfield people getting marginalised (they have done since the dubstep scene formed). But spreading misinformation on a message board int going to make a difference. Getting to nights like Platform 1, Ruffnek Discotek, Ruffage, paying for releases by labels like Hessle, Punch Drunk, Werk and Boka is what is going to make the difference. Not posting about it on a message board.

Mate you are getting what i'm saying twisted! I was agreeing with you that DUBstep isn't just ragga stabs however my point is that people ASSUME they are a core ingrediant.

I know that using a tripet echoes or tape delay (i.e dub techniques) is what the emphasis is but the name is misleading to people. Look at ANY dubstep sample CD for evidence...

Ragga stabs etc.... are as core an ingrediant as Plasticman sampling his printer in the early days....or someone using a reese or amen....or a techno bleep etc.... NOTHING is a core ingrediant.

by **pete bubonic** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:38 pm

DJ Whistla wrote:
pete bubonic wrote:Man I hate it when misinformed brehs make decsions about what the scene 'needs' to do.

HEDFUKKAH wrote: but by definition the name DUBstep means that a ragga stab/vocal is the sample of choice.

Wrong.

By definition (and the point of the name) is that it was dub version of tracks, ie: no vocals. The dub/reggae is taken only because
1/ people don't know their history
2/ too many big names rely on the universal liking of reggae/dancehall and rinse the samples in their productions.

Don't get it twisted, I agree about leftfield people getting marginalised (they have done since the dubstep scene formed). But spreading misinformation on a message board int going to make a difference. Getting to nights like Platform 1, Ruffnek Discotek, Ruffage, paying for releases by labels like Hessle, Punch Drunk, Werk and Boka is what is going to make the difference. Not posting about it on a message board.

i think hedfukkah meant that to a newbie punter who doesnt know there history etc they will assume that dubstep is a kind of dub/reggae
also
i think a bit of healthy discussion on this is valid considering its what heaps of people talk about at nights themselves, and this forum does tend to reflect the mood of the "scene" "movement" "whatever you call it"

There are at least 3 threads commenting on the new influx of nu ravers, the change in the scene towards catering for these and the departing of grime. Healthy discussion, yeah, repeating the same thing over again with no real new contribution nor even correct info aint exactly healthy conversation.

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