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http://twitter.com/vneckjumper/status/7245620218

Loved by the purists when underground, but transition into the mainstream and they'll give you grief. I wouldn't want to be wiley. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Everything he does is under a microscope.

seckle wrote:Check barefiles for wiley and kode 9 rinsefm from 2006. Some real history on that show.

seckle wrote:
i really think that there's something to be said for the UK underground, not wanting to see its own people succeed easily. you can see this with the amount of hatred and fire that someone like wiley receives.

5 years ago grime had its own much more developed infrastructure (several magazines, several blogs, radio, websites, good newspaper coverage and forums too).

Bruv, i give u ratings alot of the time but allow the waste-talk. U cant make sweeping statements like this on the UK underground based on what u pick up on the (international) airwaves.

Grime has never had a "much more developed infrastructure", it didnt have the (full) power of the internet behind it (as dubstep in 2008-present does) for starters. Any type of music can get a few column inches in the Metro one week and then never again. An "infrastructure" this does not make.

And i dont kno what "hatred and fire" Wiley gets that ur talking abt!? Maybe in the US.

The crucial difference (that no-one has alluded to) is that dubstep always had more mass appeal and, or possibly b'cos of, how it was perceived as more of a "white" form of urban music, where "grime" was always seen as more "black" and "youth" orientated (pre-2006 anyway). Most grime, the way it was pre 2006 was never ever going to get mainstream approval and this was part of the reason why it was so good for many fans. Dubstep grew out of this formula and took it to a different demographic/market, whether intentionally or not

Blackdown makes sum good points but Tinchy/Chipstick etc's #1's is a moot as they are def not grime riddims and I very much doubt any of the ppl buying this music would care abt their grime history

Big up on the mix still.

seckle wrote:
Loved by the purists when underground, but transition into the mainstream and they'll give you grief. I wouldn't want to be wiley. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Everything he does is under a microscope.

Another massive generalistaion.

Wiley gets ratings cos of what he did for UK (underground) music. Most people wit 2 brain cells kno what he is on at the moment, same with Dizzee. U can hate on their music now if you want, but it aint grime so just 'llow it and respect the moves they are making as individuals. Its like anyone who says "I wish Dizzee would go back to grime" is misguided and obviously doesnt get what is going on.

dreamizm wrote:

seckle wrote:
Loved by the purists when underground, but transition into the mainstream and they'll give you grief. I wouldn't want to be wiley. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Everything he does is under a microscope.

Another massive generalistaion.

Wiley gets ratings cos of what he did for UK (underground) music. Most people wit 2 brain cells kno what he is on at the moment, same with Dizzee. U can hate on their music now if you want, but it aint grime so just 'llow it and respect the moves they are making as individuals. Its like anyone who says "I wish Dizzee would go back to grime" is misguided and obviously doesnt get what is going on.

i got nothing but respect for wiley. I'm not hating on him at all. Its the reverse! What i don't understand is why him and dizzee aren't 6x as big as they should be right now.

As i said before, i love grime as i love us underground hip hop. And where i choose to love it from is irrelevant. Making location an issue in 2010 is silly.

blackdown wrote:i dunno dan, they're both london-born, 140bpm dark garage offshoots, so i think it's really interesting to compare them, not least because they could learn from each other.

grime's got this split personality where the grass roots scene is now very compact and the biggest stars have gone so commercial they outsell any artist in dubstep

oh no sure, it's not that they shouldn't be compared, the shared heritage makes it fascinating to do so of course - it's just trying to measure the success of one against the other has to be heavily caveated now.. they operate in totally different worlds!

to nuance your point about infrastructure, i think grime's fans are very good at collaborating - the grimepedia is a great project, and the fb campaign to get logan's show back to two hours is too - it's the artists whose scope is pretty limited. plus it's much easier for dubstep djs/producers to collaborate internationally when they're getting booked internationally (see 'int'l language of bass' argument).

seckle wrote:i got nothing but respect for wiley. I'm not hating on him at all. Its the reverse! What i don't understand is why him and dizzee aren't 6x as big as they should be right now.

well, bypassing the issue of how dizzee played ball but sometimes wiley didn't, this is because the UK majors are TERRIBLE at breaking UK urban acts in the UK, while very good at marketing US ones who are already famous in the US.

blackdown wrote:

seckle wrote:i got nothing but respect for wiley. I'm not hating on him at all. Its the reverse! What i don't understand is why him and dizzee aren't 6x as big as they should be right now.

well, bypassing the issue of how dizzee played ball but sometimes wiley didn't, this is because the UK majors are TERRIBLE at breaking UK urban acts in the UK, while very good at marketing US ones who are already famous in the US.

Or UK ones who've made it or have connections in the US!! - see Estelle, and pretty soon Jay Sean too I'm sure...

Estelle is the classic case. good uk underground MC, gets signed off the back of one hit, gets dropped after that hit, goes to the US and finds someone who knows what they're doing (John Legend and presumably his people), gets signed and oooh look the UK majors are all over her... ffs, it's the same estelle, either she was good enough in the first place or she wasnt!

seckle wrote:
As i said before, i love grime as i love us underground hip hop. And where i choose to love it from is irrelevant. Making location an issue in 2010 is silly.

Haha, it became an issue when u started talking abt UK music on a board with a majority of UK visitors. I wld have said the same thing to anyone making the generalisations u did

Also I never questioned ur love of grime, just ur perception of it.

Big ups.

@Blackdown: on Dizzee, the fact that he got 3 successive number 1's without a major label is the real point. He took an underground DIY ethos and successfully applied it to mainstream culture. I dont see anyone in dubstep doing the same thing (unless u count the US hook-ups going on behind the scenes) which by my understanding were largely US-led

that mix was really good

mos dan wrote:Some papers also print the facts which contradict your blind guesswork and unsupported hearsay http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2009/ ... rage-music

Yea I read that article - thanks for bring the topic of racism into this thread but its pretty fucking irrelevant to the events im talking about as they were years b4 that article was written and in the Midlands not London, plenty of white ppl into grime in the Midlands u know. I'm just saying a few ppl I know who are actually into the music have said that it has kicked off at many of the grime events they've been to, why do you think someone who was into the music would bother lying about that sort of thing? These nights haven't been shut down bcos the police are racists they were shut down bcos ppl were getting their heads kicked in. Mabeye it was just the events they were at and its not representative of the scene I dont know and I've got better things to be doing with my time than getting details of what nights etc I really couldn't give a shit tbh

I still take a lot of interest in Grime Blackdown, but a lot of it just doesn't work for me.

I've been playing fresh stuff from Silencer, Tempa T, Rude Kid, Maniac and most obviously Joker in my sets for the last year.

Recently the only mixtape that really caught me was P Money's. And I think the main reason for that was the choice of rhythm tracks from Sukh Knight and Silencer particularly.

I still check for grime all the time but a lot of it is not headed where I want to hear it heading. I don't mind stuff that might work in the mainstream but i'm not into the stuff thats being built with the mainstream in mind. I'm all about music as art, make it how you want to make it and because you believe in it, not because thats what people are buying right now.

I still champion what I believe to be decent grime, but there is not a great deal of good instrumental grime around any more, and the good vocal tracks are few and far between. I've probably played less than 10 in the last year... ones i can think of being:

P Money - Look How Many
P Money - Hot Ones
Newham Gens - Hard
Doctor - Tek Your Time
Tempa T - Next Hype
Tempa T - Boy Off Da Ting
JME - Ghetto Superstar
Wiley - Where's My Brother

That and a couple of Jeeday Jaws tracks.

I still have MC's pass thru the show. We've had Trim, Obese, Lee Brasco, Tempa T, Rage on the show in the last 6 months.

I would play a lot more grime if more of it was built for the dancefloor. Check my recent playlists though, there's still a fair amount getting dropped.

I agree with your comment on its direction however in relation to dubstep. With obvious exceptions being Dizzee, Kano, Tinchy, Chipmunk and Tinie Tempah.

Skepta's heading for the mainstream in 2010 I reckon.

plastician wrote:I still take a lot of interest in Grime Blackdown, but a lot of it just doesn't work for me.

...

I still check for grime all the time but a lot of it is not headed where I want to hear it heading. ...

I still champion what I believe to be decent grime, but there is not a great deal of good instrumental grime around any more...

sorry, i wasnt sending for you... in fact i think the Elijah and Skilliam mix tries to achieve what you're saying, ie instramental and aimed at the dancefloor rather than the mainstream or mixtapes.

blackdown wrote:Estelle is the classic case. good uk underground MC, gets signed off the back of one hit, gets dropped after that hit, goes to the US and finds someone who knows what they're doing (John Legend and presumably his people), gets signed and oooh look the UK majors are all over her... ffs, it's the same estelle, either she was good enough in the first place or she wasnt!

same way that sovereign and then mia get signed by us majors.....mia makes waves and sovereign gets the plug pulled on her by marketing people. The us / uk grime relationship has been crippled so many times by marketing people in the us that pitch it as "the pulse of london underground" when it should be presented as music first and foremost. As if some teenager in nebraska is supposed to know everything about london, to be able to feel the sound? so stupid. Grime should have been big in the us off of tredding on thin ice alone, but the marketing fully fucked it all up. I'd be pissed if i was wiley.

rob sparx wrote:One problem with grime that really stopped if from growing is its got the sort of attitude that brings out the sorts of ppl you really dont want to be at your event, a few years back police were shutting down every night bcos regularly at big events all it needed was a banging tune to be dropped and suddenly its all kicked off and someones got stabbed or cs gas let off etc. - playschool bullshit but not suprising considering a lot of the kids at those events were probably underage

Yeah, I agree with that definitely. End of the day, all the mcing although it can on the surface be fun its usually quite negative and hating on this or that person or crew. Its all negative energy which you don't get in 'dubstep'. Yeah, I would say watching grime videos can be fun but equally I can't escape the fact that its all about hatred, aggression and negative emotions towards others - not really something I want in my life to be honest.

i think everyone should shut up & put some all in one on..

joe muggs wrote:

blackdown wrote:

seckle wrote:i got nothing but respect for wiley. I'm not hating on him at all. Its the reverse! What i don't understand is why him and dizzee aren't 6x as big as they should be right now.

well, bypassing the issue of how dizzee played ball but sometimes wiley didn't, this is because the UK majors are TERRIBLE at breaking UK urban acts in the UK, while very good at marketing US ones who are already famous in the US.

Or UK ones who've made it or have connections in the US!! - see Estelle, and pretty soon Jay Sean too I'm sure...

Jay Sean's super-quick ascendance (on the back of a really milquetoast single that has none of the humor of his stuff w/ rishi rich) is kinda... stunning. It'll be interesting to see how it works-- can the UK re-sell him back to the UK populace at large?

now with that said-- it doesn't always work. Ms. Dynamite had a BIG push here, played saturday night live, had a wicked single (Ms. dynamite-ee-hee) and went NOWHERE. did she have a career in the UK after that?

deamonds wrote:i think everyone should shut up & put some all in one on..

Deamonds, thanks ! That's a nice one !

I do like grime a lot, but there is so much shit grime on You Tube for example. But hey, let the people try.

Sharmaji wrote: Ms. Dynamite had a BIG push here, played saturday night live, had a wicked single (Ms. dynamite-ee-hee) and went NOWHERE. did she have a career in the UK after that?

nah, she had a baby instead...

Big mix

I saw P Money, Blacks, Badness and others the other week in Bristol and they were spitting over all these wobble tunes that I would usually hate - and made it sound good. It's boring on its own.

One of the best tunes this year is 'Hard' with the Newhams and I didn't like it that much before they got on it.

I don't follow grime really, but I love the best of it as much if not more than the best dubstep. Trim, P Money, Badness, Wiley, D Double, Ghetto etc. Nothing like a big grime set - prefer sets to mix CDs/tracks hands down.