Music theory question

[daft cunt]

I'm just starting learning music theory using the "music theory for computer musicians" book and something is confusing me.
Learning the triads in the key of C major it says for instance chord IV is F major, so notes F A C with A 4 semitones above F and C 3 semitones above A. So far so good.
But then in the chord progressions examples the same chord (IV) is now played C F A so the intervals are now 5 & 4 semitones.
How can that be the same chord ?

[Dub_Fiend]

It's an inverted chord, so the notes are the same but one note of the chord is moved either up or down in order to add variation or whatever It's good if you want to make your chord patterns interesting without sticking to just the bog standard chords.

Here's a Wiki article on the whole jobby, cause I only really know what it is basically you can have different inversions too i.e. first inversions, second inversions and such, I did Music at GCSE but only very little has stuck with me.

A chord's inversion describes the relationship of its bass to the other tones in the chord. For instance, a C major triad contains the tones C, E and G; its inversion is determined by which of these tones is used as the bottom note in the chord.

The term inversion is often used to categorically refer to the different possibilities, although it may also be restricted to only those chords where the bass note is not also the root of the chord (see root position below). In texts that make this restriction, the term position may be used instead to refer to all of the possibilities as a category.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_(music)

Hope this helps


Dub Fiend

[daft cunt]

That helps a lot, thanks mate!

It's odd the author uses it in examples and explains it only 50 pages later.

[Dub_Fiend]

Mmm, that is kinda strange, especially considering he expects you to pick up on that without giving you any warning...

But yes, good luck on your music theory endeavours and I'm glad I could help


Dub Fiend

[mks]

Yeah, Inversions. They can sound really good. It's good that you are learning chords by using tones and semitones (also referred to as whole-steps and half-steps). Just remember to base counting like that off of the root note that you are on. I don't know if I can explain this clearly right now but I'll try. In your example you are on the IV chord of C which is F. C is easy because it is just C-D-E-F.... I ii iii IV... 1 2 3 4. The C below is a fourth lower, yet the C above is a fifth higher. Counting from F it would be F-G-A-B-C....1 2 3 4 5 (if F was your temporary root that would be I ii iii IV V but counted from the key of C starting on the fourth , F, that would actually be IV V vi vii I (4 5 6 7 1). So basically 4th and 5ths will invert with each other depending on which way you are heading to the root note.

Whew!! Theory... I hope I explained that ok.

EZ

[narcissus]

honestly that last post confused the hell out of me..

@ OP, my advice is that if at any time you find the numbers to be causing problems in your understanding, forget 'em. it's good to know how many semitones and whatnot, but it always helps if you just sit down with a keyboard and play whatever your book is talking about. if you play an F chord in root position, then play a 2nd inversion of it, you will hear how they're the same thing, even though they look different on paper.
always remember, numbers and names for chords only describe the sound of a chord and the feeling it creates, they're not the end all be all of understanding music.

it's cool that you're learning theory -- it's essential to know the basics like you're learning right now, but don't get too caught up in it. always remember to play/compose as much as you learn.

[Sharmaji]

inversion are just the re-arranging of chord voicings; Cmaj triad can be played as c e g, e g c, g c e . inversions are great for imparting a sense of melody to chord changes-- often, your ear hears the topmost note of the chord as the melody.

Obviously the math and semitone relationships in theory are important, but once you get the knowledge down, enjoy it-- cuz you won't have to worry about that, and you'll have the language you need in order to create something that sounds or feels the way you want it to.

[mks]

Yeah, Inversions. They can sound really good. It's good that you are learning chords by using tones and semitones (also referred to as whole-steps and half-steps). Just remember to base counting like that off of the root note that you are on. I don't know if I can explain this clearly right now but I'll try. In your example you are on the IV chord of C which is F. C is easy because it is just C-D-E-F.... I ii iii IV... 1 2 3 4. The C below is a fourth lower, yet the C above is a fifth higher. Counting from F it would be F-G-A-B-C....1 2 3 4 5 (if F was your temporary root that would be I ii iii IV V but counted from the key of C starting on the fourth , F, that would actually be IV V vi vii I (4 5 6 7 1). So basically 4th and 5ths will invert with each other depending on which way you are heading to the root note.

Whew!! Theory... I hope I explained that ok.

EZ

You know, re-reading that it does sound a bit confusing. I was just trying to explain that it is quite simple when someone says play a 5th or play the 3rd of a chord, you will know that that note is 5 notes up or 3 notes up starting from the 1, the root. You just have to count the notes of the scale.

Now chord inversions, as previously mentioned, are chords built from notes other than the root or 1.

First Inversions are chords built off of a 3rd
Second Inversions are chords built off of a 5th
Third Inversions are chords built off of a 7th

Doing this can add more color to the arrangement. Usually the bass player is holding down the root note of the chord so often it doesn't make sense for the piano player or guitarist to play the root also, so they will perhaps fill out the chord starting on a 3rd, 5th or even other notes of an extended chord. This allows for much richer chord voicings.

A practical use for this when you are making tunes is to put the root of the key that you are in in the bassline and build up your synths on top of that using other notes of the chord. You may find some very nice harmonic textures by doing this.

EZ