Leaving headroom for mastering - Master fader or individual?

[sketi]

I have been told to leave 6db of headroom for the masterer, is it ok to just use the master fader to turn the whole thing down ar should I turn down all the individual faders?

Have heard differing opinions... according to one of my friends its ok to just use the master fader in Logic (what I am using) because Logic is 32bit internally etc

Anyone know?

[Siderealdb]

I generally start a project with the master at unity and never touch it again. It's been a while since I used logic, but I would guess it has some sort of group all function that'll enable you to lower the levels of all the tracks going to master so that your mix will remain the same. This is just assuming that you've already written the track, and it's too hot at the outset. Ideally just don't touch the master and mix at lower levels on the individual tracks with your 6db in mind.

[Ldizzy]

Thats an evergoing subject...

heres my two cents... someone will surely have something to add/to say...

I HAVE VERY GENERAL AND RELATIVE KNOWLEDGE ON THE SUBJECT SO PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK AND CONTRADICT ME IF U THINK ITS RELIABLE.. u might wantto check that very long thraed on gain structuring as well..

proper gain structuring differs in the analog and digital domain, and software has its very own way of going about this...

in the analog domain, its is strongly disrecommended to pull the master fader up... even though no channel go in the red (matter of fact some of them can go in the red, in the analog domain). The reason for that is that every mixing environment has a given level of noise. from the input, ur sound is gonna travel thru a multitude of ''stages'' (eg: processors such as eq or compression), and each of those stages will add up to the total noise level... boosting ur sounds at the input (at the beginning of the chain)... or before they hit the first processors, u give them a better noise ratio, because u boost the sound and not the noise that's added after the input... but by pushing the master fader up... ur boosting noise for each and every channel... which results in a fairly different mix, pro-wise... for that reason, mainly, it is strongly suggested to leave the master fader at unity... in the analog domain... that reason is more prevalent then getting a hot signal on the master one, simply cause going in the red in an analog mixer saturates the sound in a ''gradual'' fashion... some say musical.. (at some point)...

its not the same for digital. the noise level is extremely low and since the information is transmitted digitally, it doesnt add up exactly as it would in the analog domain... for that reason, in logic u either have the choice to :

highlight all ur ''concerned'' mixer channels and pull their faders (by pulling one they're all gonna move proportionally)

pull down the master fader...

the main focus in the digital domain is for the signal OF THE MASTER not to be hot... and that goes only for the master fader... because its the output stage in which u will hear very unpleasing clipping if u go above 0 db.. the other channels work in the realm of the floating point... which basically means the program has a capacity to represent way more values then a lower bitrated project. for that reason, the program has no need to approximate or truncate certain values... outside of that system of ''float'', the decimal is fixed... and any value thats over the decimal limit of the system... is mathematically gonna get truncated/slammed down to zero, resulting in that very unpleasant click...

i know my concepts are not perfect.. please correct me if im wrong.. but that was basically to give u the background idea to these guidelines :

1) do not go in the red on the master fader of ur logic project
2) u can generally pull up or down ur master fader because theorically it wont add any noise...
3) u can also pull down every other level at the same time and preserve the same balance in the mix...

i NEED to stress this fact tho, which is my opinion : by giving urself reasonable headroom at the beginning of ur mix... u will prevent all sorts of bad decisions, and will be more prompt to .. build ur mix and put its elements in relationship... then to squash/mask-errors-and-imperfections/... working with a master gain at unity basically means uve done ur mixing job right from step one...

[nowaysj]

Do a search on here for the term "moneyshot" in the production forum. Clear your schedule. I'll break it down for you though. If you have to turn your master fader down, you're doing it wrong.

[staticcast]

short answer: it won't make a difference in sound (as long as you haven't got any compressors/nonlinear effects on your master bus), but turning down your channel faders instead will generally make the track easier to mix because channel meters are more readable when they're not peaking.

[logic pro]

I AM THE MASTERER.

[Ldizzy]

i think u have the essential answers to ur problem here!

for the rest its pretty much covered in the thread nowaysj's referring to :

/viewtopic.php?t=74832

save the day. i think its the best thread on dsf.

[safeandsound]

Hi there, in a nutshell..

If you have mixed a track and then you are removing a limiter/bus compressor (possibly at the request of the mastering engineer) check the mix peaks as to ensure it is not exceeding 0dBFS on the output.

If it is do a "save as" on your project and then pull the master fader down by the amount required to stop the overs. It is unreasonable, risky and
impractical to rebalance an entire mix. (anyone who has tried knows it never retains the sound you started with). The detriment by pulling
down the master fader X dB at 24bit resolution will be to all intents and purposes inaudible despite being a compromise.

Moving forwards:

With this in mind next time you start building/mixing your track peak the kick at -18dBFS on the master
and your mix is much less likely to get to zero.

cheers

[paravrais]

EDIT: OK. I put my hand up when I'm wrong.

:\

That'll teach me to post on DSF when I'm on a comedown lol

Sorry guys

[staticcast]

This whole thread makes me wanna facepalm :\

Slightly worrying to see a supposed mastering engineer say stuff like;

"check the mix peaks as to ensure it is not exceeding 0dBFS on the output." - Well yeah, but I've never spoken to a mastering engineer that didn't expect at LEAST -3db, a lot say -4 or less sometimes.

it doesn't make a difference to the mastering engineer whether they get a mix peaking at -20dBFS or -0.01dBFS.

if you're already happy with the mix and the master fader is at -10 or whatever in order to avoid clipping, just leave it there ffs. don't remix the entire track just so it follows the guidelines in the moneyshot thread if you're already happy with the results.

[paravrais]

This whole thread makes me wanna facepalm :\

Slightly worrying to see a supposed mastering engineer say stuff like;

"check the mix peaks as to ensure it is not exceeding 0dBFS on the output." - Well yeah, but I've never spoken to a mastering engineer that didn't expect at LEAST -3db, a lot say -4 or less sometimes.

it doesn't make a difference to the mastering engineer whether they get a mix peaking at -20dBFS or -0.01dBFS.

if you're already happy with the mix and the master fader is at -10 or whatever in order to avoid clipping, just leave it there ffs. don't remix the entire track just so it follows the guidelines in the moneyshot thread if you're already happy with the results.

Then why do mastering engineers tell you to re-send the track if you send them one peaking at 0db??

[Depone]

paravrais, your reply to Jason's post was pretty condescending to a well oiled experienced mastering engineer.
Just saying, you should re-read what hes said, and then look at your replies.

[macc]

Aye, paravrais - wind your neck in man. Static_Cast and Safeandsound speak the truth...

@ the OP - There's nothing inherently wrong with turning down the master fader if you are clipping by a few dB. It's the simplest way to do it. Moving individual faders can change your mix if you're using a lot of groups/busses with level-dependent plugins (compressors, distortion etc). Moving the master fader keeps all that intact. The point of the moneyshot thread is that ideally, you start lower in the first place so you don't need to move the master fader.

As for the -3 / -6 /-20 thing - I don't really care as long as things aren't limited or clipped. But if a mix comes in peaking at -0.01dB and I want to add, say, 2dB of bass, I am going to have to turn it down to do that. So it's better for me if I already have room to work with. But it's hardly a big deal.

It's not rocket science peeps!

[paravrais]

Meh, maybe I make things harder for myself then. I just didn't think it was good advice to give someone new that they can just turn their master fader down when it's clipping rather than learning how to mix a track properly...

[Debaser1]

I personally make things individually quieter and leave the master.

As suggested macc's gain structuring thread is real mixing pornography of the highest quality. Good porn, not rubbish porn.

[Dystinkt]

I personally turn up/down individual channels rather than the master, if the gain structuring of your track is good, you shouldnt even have to touch the master fader. Props to macc for teaching me that via the moneyshot thread.

[macc]

Meh, maybe I make things harder for myself then. I just didn't think it was good advice to give someone new that they can just turn their master fader down when it's clipping rather than learning how to mix a track properly...

I've spent a very very large amount of time trying to help people with that on this forum.

However, if the track is finished, it's finished. It's a bit late at that point. Hence the same thing I have said 109324719832074 times; 'There's nothing intrinsically wrong with moving the master fader, though it is symptomatic of poor/inefficient mixing technique'. Or whatever it is I usually say, something like that anyway.

In any case, your 'Then why do mastering engineers tell you to re-send the track if you send them one peaking at 0db??' comment was having a dig at something that hadn't been said

[Sharmaji]

short answer? both.

[paravrais]

I don't understand any more.




OK, I'm sorry for being rude, could people please explain to me the points I am now very confused about though? Cos the things I said I've always been led to believe were true :\

Mastering peeps always seem to ask for at least -3db headroom, my bad for assuming it was essential and not just preference though. But still, it's better to advise newbies to mix to that kind of level anyway so they don't have to alter their tunes later down the line before sending to master?

Also, if things are clipping in the synth and you turn down the master fader surely that isn't gonna help anything?? Or do I not get this at all??

[paravrais]

In any case, your 'Then why do mastering engineers tell you to re-send the track if you send them one peaking at 0db??' comment was having a dig at something that hadn't been said

Somebody said that mastering engineers didn't care what level your track was peaking at.