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Why D&B? Broken Beat & Dubstep make better bedfellow

debate, appreciation, interviews, reviews (events or releases), videos, radio shows

Postby owengriffiths » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:25 pm

Warm up the night with broken to prime the dancefloor for the upcoming bass. Only problem is that Nu Jazz/ Broken Beat is a fair bit slower than dubstep (house bpm only a slightly faster), so you probably wouldn't get away with smooth back to back mixing of the styles unless you had the master tempo/key correction feature you have on top of the range cdj's.

Personally I think the scene needs more vocals and more 'fluffy' sounds in it. Think S&D-Candyfloss and Mala- Anti-War Dub, think Cays Cray. Even think of Steve Gurley. Broken beat (and lets face it out of all the dance genres those boys know how to do a vocal with class, they never fuck it up!) isn't always a million miles away from dubstep. Check out these for stuff where the boundaries blur:-

Daz I Kue ft Colonel red- 'Rokstone (soon come' (Boulder Dub)
Bakura- 'Bada' (Domu Dub)
Son of Scientist- 'keep it burning' (off the burning ep)

There is a place for the Co-op sound in dubstep, trust me. J Da Flex & bad man Zed Bias dem tell me no lies.
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Postby itcch » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:31 pm

bugz have played fwd way back, j da flex, landslide and i suppose zed was pushin that kinda vibe around 2002.
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Postby blackdown » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:33 pm

Check the Bugz Fabric CD from a few years back. The perfect "brukstep" selection...
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Postby thinking » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:48 pm

love it mate, still play plenty of heavy broken although there doesn't seem to be much comin out at the mo; although to be fair I have really been payin much attention this year due to too many good dubstep records bein released. :D
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Postby the decoy » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:55 pm

owengriffiths wrote:Personally I think the scene needs more vocals and more 'fluffy' sounds in it...


I dunno about "fluffy", but dubstep defenetly needs a more jazzy flavor. Thow some horns in there and some jazzy drum sounds. The girl from codine city by L-Wiz is the direction I'm talking about.


by the way, could someone point a very interested party tword someplace to download some brokenbeat/Nu Jazz mixes? please? I'm looking in the direction of the thread starter....
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Postby thinking » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:58 pm

there's an old mix by me, plus links to plenty of others in this recent thread on DOA. :4:
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Postby blackdown » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:08 pm

the decoy wrote:dubstep defenetly needs a more jazzy flavor.


i always feel like 'jazzy' as a direction, is a real artistic mistake. jazz is an incredible genre, played by live musicians. but going 'jazz-y' comes off both like a poor copy of real jazz and attempt by producers to aquire authenticity from 'real' musicians, which ultimately fails.
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Postby narcossist » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:08 pm

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I think the most interesting nights don't watch tempos or genres and instead use tunes from across the board. There are common threads running through music that are completely neglected by genre boundries, whether in terms of production techniques or mood.

I'd rather some things left unmixed rather than everything being within +-8 of the previous track just for the purpose of playing two tunes together for a bit. Theres quite a few mixes i've grabbed off here that cover alot styles from a dubstep centric [or not] perspective.
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Postby unlikely » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:12 pm

I've always seen mala tunes as quite jazzy, but more in their approach than sonically if you know what i mean, esp. "learn" and of course "blue notes" which references one of the all time great jazz labels
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Postby boomnoise » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:38 pm

Blackdown wrote:
the decoy wrote:dubstep defenetly needs a more jazzy flavor.


i always feel like 'jazzy' as a direction, is a real artistic mistake. jazz is an incredible genre, played by live musicians. but going 'jazz-y' comes off both like a poor copy of real jazz and attempt by producers to aquire authenticity from 'real' musicians, which ultimately fails.


totally. i can't think of any music where jazzification has been successfully applied. jazz fusion, jazzy dnb, jazzy techno etc yuk

as far as this argument goes, of course there are many musics which could sit nicely next to dubstep. the fact is that its developed now whereby dances are a one genre affair and i think that so far this has served the sound pretty well.

as it gets more popular surely it will be included in mixes by more and more eclectic djs (kid kameleon, rupture et al) and be a set amongst many at certain nights.

but fwd has been filled on the basis of it being a dubstep nite now, to the detriment of grime which is a very very natural bedpartner. dnb's adoption of it doesn't always sit easy with me but i can understand it.

i think it's up to promoters to put on nights including dubstep in a new and exciting context - this is already starting to happen and i'm looking forward to see how it will develop
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Postby optimum » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:55 pm

Agree with boomnoise and blackdown, only 'jazzy' hip hop a la madlib kinda works for me and that's cos a lot of it is sampled lol.
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Postby elgato » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:00 pm

unlikely wrote:"blue notes" which references one of the all time great jazz labels


i've often wondered whether that is a reference to the jazz label, or to the venue of the metalheadz nights (right?), or the concept in music theory...

on the original topic, in my opinion at clubnights its more or less all about having dubstep in the context of other types of music, i think purist nights do work, but too much of that will be to the detriment of diversity and interface in the music itself. and it often makes a dubstep set more exciting when its put in the context of other forms of music, and its usually just more fun

but of all the directions i can think for dubstep to take, nu jazz is without question one of the least exciting for me right now (probably a close second to drab, stiff, dnb-influenced dirge)
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Postby hate recordings » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:02 pm

Blackdown wrote:i always feel like 'jazzy' as a direction, is a real artistic mistake. jazz is an incredible genre, played by live musicians. but going 'jazz-y' comes off both like a poor copy of real jazz and attempt by producers to aquire authenticity from 'real' musicians, which ultimately fails.


exactly! you are more than spot on. if anyone didnt read this, read it again.

my take on it?

as far as jazz is concerned - i'm sittin here lookin at about 60 jazz cd's right now that i own [hardcopy - not mp3's], stuff from blue note (predominately), impulse, ecm, cti, verve, atlantic, columbia, prestige, ect. best band is the art's jazz messengers, best leader is shorter, and cti does NOT stand for "commercial trash", ect. i'd say i'm fairly well familiar with jazz music and had to say something about those "jazzy" sounds.

i think that the only way proper jazz-like sounds can be achieved in this day and age is through sampling. hiphop producers such as premier, large professor, pete rock and showbiz brought jazz to the forefront back in the early 90's. freaking samples of original works of art is pretty much the only way to do it.

alot of people who do this modern "jazz" thing in works like dnb and downtempo kinda have this phoney, plastic sound to it. artists like kruder and dorfmeister and several artists on hospital records have this plastic kinda sound. almost like something youd hear on an elevator in 10 years. it's not in my opinion a true jazz sound, its only an emulation, and not a very good one at that.

whereas artists who are samplehavy in thier music such as vadim or krush, when they sample jazz music, it is pretty much official most of the time due to the sampling of original music. there's no explaination to it, really. you just gotta hear it. theres an authentic sound and a fake sound. death to false jazz.

dnb had this sound in the earlier days for a while, the early jungle sound. the long pads and strings and fake saxaphones. this sound turned me off to dnb for years.

i'd really hate for something as solid as dubstep take a turn like this. the genre is just evolving damn near perfectly, and im loving the direction its going in now. there are elements from everywhere, raggae, garage, jazz, soul, dnb, metal, dub, downtempo, its just all over. it would break my heart to hear london elektricity doing dubstep tho and people actually buying into it.

keep it deep. keep it dark. keep it dubstep
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Postby hate recordings » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:08 pm

boomnoise wrote:dnb's adoption of it doesn't always sit easy with me but i can understand it.


we're not adopoting you. we ran away from home and are demanding you adopt us :D we need a good home!
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Postby baz » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:13 pm

i wouldn't agree with that mr boomnoise - i really love the music that came out of people like herbie hancock and miles blending jazz with funk in the late 60s and early 70s, that's definitely a fusion that worked perfectly. but people have such a narrow idea of what jazz means sometimes, i think they're mostly referring to a certain choice of instrumentation more than anything else.
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Postby boomnoise » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:16 pm

Hate Recordings wrote:
boomnoise wrote:dnb's adoption of it doesn't always sit easy with me but i can understand it.


we're not adopoting you. we ran away from home and are demanding you adopt us :D we need a good home!


lol. i meant in the context of there being a dubstep room at dnb raves.
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Postby boomnoise » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:21 pm

baz wrote:i wouldn't agree with that mr boomnoise - i really love the music that came out of people like herbie hancock and miles blending jazz with funk in the late 60s and early 70s, that's definitely a fusion that worked perfectly. but people have such a narrow idea of what jazz means sometimes, i think they're mostly referring to a certain choice of instrumentation more than anything else.


this is true. i was generalising a fair bit. but what i was getting at was this jazzification - that's what irks me; taking a form of music and attempting to make it jazzy by including established jazz signifiers. and, as you point out, what usually underpins the failure in this is the misinterpretation of jazz.

i think this more applies to electronic music. i too like a lot of the jazz funk fusion stuff but they sat very close to eachother at the time and was more logical than say jazz rock, where again, in my view, this misinterpretation comes into play again. but with later stuff rather than stuff like sonny sharrock or someone - this was inspired.
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Postby shonky » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:34 pm

narcossist wrote:At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I think the most interesting nights don't watch tempos or genres and instead use tunes from across the board. There are common threads running through music that are completely neglected by genre boundries, whether in terms of production techniques or mood.

I'd rather some things left unmixed rather than everything being within +-8 of the previous track just for the purpose of playing two tunes together for a bit. Theres quite a few mixes i've grabbed off here that cover alot styles from a dubstep centric [or not] perspective.


Totally agree here (might be as I can't mix for shit, but there ya go). Was playing a night a few weeks back, with no monitors, not being able to hear shit through the headphones, and just gave up on the mixing thing and mostly played stuff start to finish. Crowds don't seem to give a shit about mixing as long as the selections good and there's a load of soul, rock, jazz and assorted others that can match mood, if not tempo and it seems a bit shit to avoid all this possibility via the dictatorship of tempo. For instance California Soul by Marlena Shaw in terms of mood goes well with old skool hardcore, but without some silly pitch-shifting is going to sound shite to do it "professional".

Jazz is about improvisation and stream of consciousness playing, I think the whole reason people "doing" jazz seems to be mostly taking the blandest elements from jazz and then looping them to death with "tasteful" production. End result mostly seems to be tedious as hell (although I've still got great fondness for early ATCQ).

It'd be exciting to hear the more blaring, dissonant end of jazz being introduced into dubstep, that music at the edge of thought style rather than skag and duvet tunes. I'm thinking "Caucasian Death Mask" by Alec Empire and Techno Animal, free jazz skronking and heavy beats and rock basses, that Kevin Shield's sun-ra mix that he did for Primal Scream a while back. Jazz isn't just cosy jumper music and I find it a bit irritating that this is the only style which seems to get used in that quest for authenticity.

I also get the feeling that dubstep + jazz = trip hop with heavier bass, and that's not something that sounds that enticing. I'd like the mad-end jazz with feedback and white noise, but that's maybe getting a bit avant-garde (maybe Boxcutter gets closest to this).
Hmm....

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Postby fubar » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:36 pm

I think it could be done really well, but it would take a certain kind of talent and natural innovation to pull it off and not just be 'jazzy' but effectivley an electronic/jazz/dubstep fusion;

I dont think jazz works when its sampled out of context so it would have to be an instrumentalist recording bits into their own track, and then theres so many modern jazz instrumentalists nowadays that can churn out cliche after cliche with alot of skill but effectivley no vibe or feeling, and 90 percent of the time arn't composing anyway.

Then theres time signature problems which is what often makes 'jazzy' electronic music sound so stale because its limited to 4/4, and finally that anyone who is passionate about composing jazz in this era has probably had so much rules and definitions of how it is made (its basically like classical music now) shoved done their throat that any possiblity of creativity is completley gone.
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Postby shonky » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:54 pm

Know what you're saying, think jazz being taught for so many years and that purism with certain styles in the genre does rather stop experimentation and when fusions are attempted they do get a bit muso-ey.

It'd be much better in my opinion to get a dj with a good grasp of club dynamics to get in a jazz player with a good grasp of composition to help on the arrangements, rather than just drab solos over jazz 101 chords. I think with the mad builds and fx and more interesting structures underneath, with both sides reining in the excesses of the other, it could make for interesting listening.
Hmm....

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