Why D&B? Broken Beat & Dubstep make better bedfellow

debate, appreciation, interviews, reviews (events or releases), videos, radio shows
dogdaze
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:05 am

Post by dogdaze » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:16 pm

*disappointment about today's broken beat edited away*

let's just say... nothing but love for the 99-03 west london era. some of the best and most inspiring music written during my lifetime. big up the original spirit.
Out now - Dogdaze album 'In Dog We Trust' (Dogdaze Productions 001cd)
Soundclips, hype & ordering info @ http://home.deds.nl/~deef and http://www.myspace.com/dogdaze

User avatar
parson
Posts: 11311
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:26 am
Location: ATX
Contact:

Re: Why D&B? Broken Beat & Dubstep make better bedfe

Post by parson » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:19 pm

Blackdown wrote:
the decoy wrote:dubstep defenetly needs a more jazzy flavor.
i always feel like 'jazzy' as a direction, is a real artistic mistake. jazz is an incredible genre, played by live musicians. but going 'jazz-y' comes off both like a poor copy of real jazz and attempt by producers to aquire authenticity from 'real' musicians, which ultimately fails.
took the words out my mouf

slothrop
Posts: 2655
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:59 am

Post by slothrop » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:20 pm

baz wrote:i wouldn't agree with that mr boomnoise - i really love the music that came out of people like herbie hancock and miles blending jazz with funk in the late 60s and early 70s, that's definitely a fusion that worked perfectly. but people have such a narrow idea of what jazz means sometimes, i think they're mostly referring to a certain choice of instrumentation more than anything else.
The whole 'it's got a saxophone sample and isn't particularly heavy so that makes it jazzy' thing doesn't really bother me. What becomes a problem is when people can toss out any old crap with a sampled sax and no balls whatsoever and have large numbers of people stroke their goatees and say 'man, that's some deep jazzy flavas' and buy copies of the album.

IOW I don't really mind people sticking jazz samples on tunes and not truly appreciating the harmonic structure or improvisatory nature of jazz provided the tunes they're sticking their jazz samples on are actually good. But yeah, once you go down the jazziness road there's a danger that they won't be for very long.

BaronVon
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:05 pm
Location: Yanbu

Post by BaronVon » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:22 pm

Sieji from Bugz mix 3 hours of badness http://www.sendspace.com/file/gqb2k9

I agree whole heartedly that Broken Beat is far more suited to Dubstep than D&B alot of the music overlaps very similiar genres.
tr0tsky wrote: InI man nuh go to nah rasclot independent ethnic butchers seen.
Selassie-I man shop in Morrisons.

User avatar
the decoy
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:27 pm
Location: Baltimore, hon

Post by the decoy » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:07 pm

baz wrote:i think they're mostly referring to a certain choice of instrumentation more than anything else.
that's what I was referring to, change up the flavor with some horns or something.

I just want more horns is all.

sorry.

User avatar
owengriffiths
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:10 pm
Location: Belfast
Contact:

Post by owengriffiths » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:52 am

I would love to hear broken beat mixes too, as Benji B on 1xtra and Gilles Peterson on Radio1 only play a small selection of it in their sets. Same goes for Patrick Forge on Kiss100. I've never tried this link before, but Goya, who are Broken's equivalent of Ammunition Promotions, have a show on what is presumably a pirate: The Goya Music Radio Show Every Sunday 6-8 PM on House FM - on 88.6FM in London or on on the web. This is the web address of the station http://www.housefm.net/ and the DJ is called Nick Rees.

I've never had the time to check it myself but it is presumably pretty good.

Personally I fucking love Broken Beat, and whether it is jazz or not I don't really care as I know nothing about REAL JAZZ. All the sounds they [the broken heads] use, the way they have such skill when they're laying down vocals, they just seem like such proffessionals. They're the antithesis of someone making something on a playstation in 10 minutes over a cup of tea and a spliff. Listen to the likes of IG Culture and you will hear what I mean (His 'Herbs & Spices' tune under the Likwid Bizkit guise is a cover version of a Herbie Hancock track).

And when I say I want fluffy sounds in dubstep, I don't mean cheesy. This was the problem with garage in it's 2000 era. They never followed the sound advice of people like Steve Gurley, they imitated all that verse chorus verse chorus (ashamed to be European) tacky US R&B sound. Vocals in general are a comlex issue. I love the Benji B Deviation style of Neo Soul, but I can't accurately fathom what makes it so different to big label R&B, all I know is that it is of a higher quality.

esef
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:51 pm
Location: Lost Angeles
Contact:

Post by esef » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:09 am

how about the combo of Breakbeat and Dubstep?

LUSH! 8)

blackdown
>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<
Posts: 2351
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:46 pm
Location: LDN
Contact:

Post by blackdown » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:48 am

If we step back from the actual issue of "jazz-y" for a sec, there's a broader point here about influences within dubstep.

One of the critisms leveled at dubstep over the years by some of the big guns like Simon Reynolds is that it's little more than an amalgamation of sounds that have come before (primarily jungle, breaks, 2step and dub reggae).

The essence of this diss is that basically, dubstep is less than the sum of it's parts. This is why I've always felt that it's "parts" ie what it samples (or perhaps just the flavours it pursues), is therefore really important to get right.

Now amongst the producers there's lots of headz who have seen what happened to the sounds that have come before (ie jungle, 2step, breaks and dub reggae again) and how some of them made bad musical decisions. In this case jungle is the main example.

This is why I've always been keen that we learn ("why haven't you learned anything!!!" hehe) from those mistakes and find new sonic avenues to go down that are exclusive to dubstep rather than re-visiting the "jazz-y" mistakes of jungle (or other genres) all over again. Moving FWD>> never backwards...
Keysound Recordings, Rinse FM, http://www.blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com, sub, edge, bars, groove, swing...

baz
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:46 pm
Contact:

Post by baz » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:54 am

this is true. i was generalising a fair bit. but what i was getting at was this jazzification - that's what irks me; taking a form of music and attempting to make it jazzy by including established jazz signifiers. and, as you point out, what usually underpins the failure in this is the misinterpretation of jazz.

i think this more applies to electronic music. i too like a lot of the jazz funk fusion stuff but they sat very close to eachother at the time and was more logical than say jazz rock, where again, in my view, this misinterpretation comes into play again. but with later stuff rather than stuff like sonny sharrock or someone - this was inspired.
yes mate we're on the same page about this... i'm not so sure funk and jazz were as close as you say though, the big change was maybe the switch to electric instruments as much as any change to playing styles. once they were commonplace jazz rock followed pretty logically from some of the same people involved in the jazz funk fusion stuff (like john mclaughlin and tony williams etc). not a big fan of the rock stuff myself though.

never heard any sonny sharrock, i'll have to investigate... thanks for the heads up!

metalboxproducts
Posts: 7132
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Lower Clapton Rd, Hackney
Contact:

Re: Why D&B? Broken Beat & Dubstep make better bedfe

Post by metalboxproducts » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:21 am

Blackdown wrote:
the decoy wrote:dubstep defenetly needs a more jazzy flavor.
i always feel like 'jazzy' as a direction, is a real artistic mistake. jazz is an incredible genre, played by live musicians. but going 'jazz-y' comes off both like a poor copy of real jazz and attempt by producers to aquire authenticity from 'real' musicians, which ultimately fails.
Yes...It's like, " I know, Ill show everyone how good a producer i am by throwing some easy listening crap over the top of my beats. That'll make me look like i'm really mature".
Having said that i did recently use a sample of a Miles track. :lol:
Last edited by metalboxproducts on Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
magma wrote: I must fellate you instantly."?
Close The Door available here vvvvvvvv
http://www.digital-tunes.net/labels/metalbox
http://www.myspace.com/metalboxproducts
every thursday 10-12 gmt
Image

User avatar
DeepThought
Posts: 2266
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Amsterdam via UK Deep South West
Contact:

Post by DeepThought » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:23 am

dogdaze wrote:*disappointment about today's broken beat edited away*

let's just say... nothing but love for the 99-03 west london era. some of the best and most inspiring music written during my lifetime. big up the original spirit.
man i know what you sayin there! virtually all the new bruk ive heard has been vocal driven bland noodle beat.. there was a time when it was tuff, or at least wonky.. havin said that, even though i used to love goin to co-op and the vibes were easily some of the best (the crowd participation was 2nd to none) the whole time i was just hopin the next track was gonna be more dark and durty!

oh and if the jazz thing did come through in dubstep, and it was like the dnb/london electricity thing (even though hospital did release stuff by zed bias etc) id be fully gutted

metalboxproducts
Posts: 7132
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 9:46 pm
Location: Lower Clapton Rd, Hackney
Contact:

Post by metalboxproducts » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:42 am

Off topic a bit but, has any one sample Can? :wink: I'm working on a track atm thats based around a Can track. I've not sampled anything, it's just based on the structure.
magma wrote: I must fellate you instantly."?
Close The Door available here vvvvvvvv
http://www.digital-tunes.net/labels/metalbox
http://www.myspace.com/metalboxproducts
every thursday 10-12 gmt
Image

elgato
Posts: 3671
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:46 pm

Post by elgato » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:29 am

DeepThought wrote:oh and if the jazz thing did come through in dubstep, and it was like the dnb/london electricity thing (even though hospital did release stuff by zed bias etc) id be fully gutted
i think thats doing london electricity and hospital a massive, massive dis-service. jazz is actually one of the last influences that would jump to mind when i think of these artists, they pushed exciting new sounds in drum and bass, and while now it seems they have had their day, in my opinion it was extremely good, and exciting, while it lasted

User avatar
DeepThought
Posts: 2266
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Amsterdam via UK Deep South West
Contact:

Post by DeepThought » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:28 am

elgato wrote:i think thats doing london electricity and hospital a massive, massive dis-service. jazz is actually one of the last influences that would jump to mind when i think of these artists, they pushed exciting new sounds in drum and bass
true as that maybe, i think that you actually hit the nail on the head with your last statement
elgato wrote:it was extremely good, and exciting, while it lasted
so yeah it was good then but i dont want it done again now to dubstep..
i dont think itd be like a new thing, its got every chance of bein like someone recreatin what london electricity did to dnb but to dubstep.. which, imo, would cheapen the sound..

i suppose on the otherhand im bein a total hipacritic cos im into the dub element which has come through into dubstep.. and, lets face it, thats basically the same thing we talkin about here but with dub as opposed to jazz.. the difference bein i really like those dub elements! :wink:

elgato
Posts: 3671
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:46 pm

Post by elgato » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:37 am

lol

i guess the way i see it is that i see hospital as a movement rather than a sound, i was looking at it more abstractly than practically... so if a crew came into dubstep and were brave enough to do something so fresh, and succeed in that, to create an environment in which artists could go in such creative and new directions. and also, to bring lightness and soul back more centrally into the equation.

on a separate point i find it surprising that they seem to get associated with nujazz so much, cos so much of hospital's stuff is shining, electrified, disco-ish, vocal, even garagey (although there is a fair bit of that hands-in-the-air xylophone sax and female chorus stuff!)

User avatar
thinking
Posts: 4753
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:34 pm
Location: Bristal
Contact:

Post by thinking » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:42 am

I think people are getting worked up over the idea of producers writing "Jazz dubstep" i.e. dubstep written with jazz sensibilities with regards to musical form. I don't think many peeps are really trying this are they?

I'm thinking purely in terms of instrumentation i.e. sampling, live instruments and so on, much like Primo or Pete Rock beats as someone mentioned earlier in the thread.

Jazz Lick was a heavy tune, noone would say that Loefah was trying to write a jazz tune though, just it's got some vibes and double bass samples in. Same for Candy Floss, it's just got a rhodes plus some drums nicked from a Herbie Hancock tune (by the sounds of it), it's not trying to 'be' jazz.

I'm well up for more of the above, bring a few more organic elements into the music without it having to be ethnic instruments or heavy metal.
BLACK BOX & BOX CLEVER

Image
paulie wrote:Thinking >>>> everyone else on this forum.

narcossist
Posts: 720
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 2:21 pm

Post by narcossist » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:20 pm

Blackdown wrote:If we step back from the actual issue of "jazz-y" for a sec, there's a broader point here about influences within dubstep.

One of the critisms leveled at dubstep over the years by some of the big guns like Simon Reynolds is that it's little more than an amalgamation of sounds that have come before (primarily jungle, breaks, 2step and dub reggae).

The essence of this diss is that basically, dubstep is less than the sum of it's parts. This is why I've always felt that it's "parts" ie what it samples (or perhaps just the flavours it pursues), is therefore really important to get right.

Now amongst the producers there's lots of headz who have seen what happened to the sounds that have come before (ie jungle, 2step, breaks and dub reggae again) and how some of them made bad musical decisions. In this case jungle is the main example.

This is why I've always been keen that we learn ("why haven't you learned anything!!!" hehe) from those mistakes and find new sonic avenues to go down that are exclusive to dubstep rather than re-visiting the "jazz-y" mistakes of jungle (or other genres) all over again. Moving FWD>> never backwards...
In theory this makes perfect sense - obviously invention is better than imitation - but in practice all this talk of what not to put in dubstep productions is beginning to get quite constrictive.

If the current trends dictate that wobbling bass, dub signifiers, dnb midrange sounds, asian samples, half-step, drum breaks and loefah style minmalism [and i guess now jazz] are all off the menu except to those producers who made their name pushing such a style, its becoming a serious task to find acceptable samples/synths :) .

It's a bit much imo to expect everyone coming through to find their own culture specific take on dubstep esp if their surroundings feature no particular culture of note. Without using any of the standard dubstep signifiers its probable a track wouldn't be classed as dubstep, it would probably also be alot harder to get any exposure for it.

I guess my point is that if somethings done right it doesn't matter where the inspiration for it came from, hence the gripes would be better targeted at the uninteresting tracks rather than their elements. For example two tracks featuring guitar up-skanks needn't neccesarily effect the listener in the same way, therefore why hate on the skank itself rather than the way its used? Im sure using alot of the samples off the burial album it would be possible to make the most cringeworthingly cheesy record, however becuase of the way he made it it's next level.

User avatar
DeepThought
Posts: 2266
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: Amsterdam via UK Deep South West
Contact:

Post by DeepThought » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:33 pm

narcossist wrote:I guess my point is that if somethings done right it doesn't matter where the inspiration for it came from, hence the gripes would be better targeted at the uninteresting tracks rather than their elements. For example two tracks featuring guitar up-skanks needn't neccesarily effect the listener in the same way, therefore why hate on the skank itself rather than the way its used? Im sure using alot of the samples off the burial album it would be possible to make the most cringeworthingly cheesy record, however becuase of the way he made it it's next level.
very true.
true also about things could be gettin constrictive, esp as there is no real rules (which is obv good)..

however im still of the school of thought that pan pipes should never be used! :wink:

blackdown
>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<
Posts: 2351
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:46 pm
Location: LDN
Contact:

Post by blackdown » Wed Dec 06, 2006 12:54 pm

narcossist wrote:It's a bit much imo to expect everyone coming through to find their own culture specific take on dubstep esp if their surroundings feature no particular culture of note.
i dont think this is too much to ask, i have a lot of faith in dubstep and have seen too many amazing producers come through, to ascribe to the view that we should all give up trying to be original and find new ways and just settle for the same few styles.
Keysound Recordings, Rinse FM, http://www.blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com, sub, edge, bars, groove, swing...

TRG
>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<
Posts: 714
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:22 pm
Contact:

Post by TRG » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:20 pm

As a dj who still plays drumandbass and sometimes drops dubstep middle of the set, I can guarantee, and most of the people who are on a similar tip (kozee?), NOBODY IN THE AUDIENCE GIVES A SHIT IF IT'S MIXED IN OR NOT. Except for some purists maybe.

I'm ranting because I don't really have a point, but I think both genres sit well with each other due to their sub-heavy nature and they're both just as healthy. I haven't turned my back on dnb, just on a few genres that don't really appeal to me anymore (the generic neurofunk for example). There's very positive stuff coming out from both camps and at the end of the day it's all about just switching from one vibe to another and enjoying good music.

Fuk me, I'm so dramatic.
Colin Farrel wrote:No, that wasn't me playing FWD@Plastic People last month.
http://www.CosminTRG.com

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 10 guests