Threads regarding torrents and filesharing.

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seckle
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Threads regarding torrents and filesharing.

Post by seckle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:16 pm

Ez all. we've had a longstanding policy to try and end threads that give info or reveal places where illegal downloading is occuring. it's a very dicey issue, because there are always situations where it's helpful to know about files being shared. obviously emotions can run high when a producer/label finds his files being downloaded, so in certain situations we'll allow these kinds of threads to stay up for a short period of time. usually a couple of hours.

in the future if you'd like to bring to the forum's attention a site that has illegal dubs/mixes or otherwise, please do not post direct links to the site in question. be as indirect as possible.

being specific about things like this only broadcasts the situation to the whole world, and in effect causes more harm than good.

we're not tryin to stop filesharing, because thats impossible. all we have control over is how these things are handled via the forum.
i know this is a quaqmire topic, but trust that we're trying our best to put down fires rather than start them.

on average, we've got 4000 hits on this forum per day. that's roughly 160 unique visitors in an hour. immediately you can see the potential pitfalls of allowing these threads to stay online.

support the music you love. support the artists you love.

seckle
Last edited by seckle on Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

auralassassin
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Post by auralassassin » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:28 am

I would personally like to set fire to the house of anyone I see stealing music. Then maybe they would feel as disrespected as they should be, given their obvious disrespect for other peoples property rights.

*steps down off his soapbox*
*gets back on his filesharing software*

dub_warrior
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Post by dub_warrior » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:18 pm

indeed
dont do filesharing
but keep those free mixes going with all the latest tunes :?: :lol: :D
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seckle
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Post by seckle » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:15 pm

bump!

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Post by marsyas » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:37 pm

so that thread deapoh started got deleted ?

i wanted to read it damnit.

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seckle
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Post by seckle » Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:37 pm

Marsyas wrote:so that thread deapoh started got deleted ?

i wanted to read it damnit.
it was up for 11 hours. sorry.

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Post by djshiva » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:09 pm

seckle wrote:
Marsyas wrote:so that thread deapoh started got deleted ?

i wanted to read it damnit.
it was up for 11 hours. sorry.
why exactly did it get deleted? i know it mentioned *coughsoulyouknowwhat*, but there was actually some interesting conversation goin' on in there.

is this is a community or a dictatorship? ok maybe i'm being a tad snarky, but damn...it's not like people who wanna share and steal files don't just have to google to find out how to do so.

i mean, this is the same kind of mentality that the right wing exhibits about sex ed. "if we TELL the kids that birth control exists, they will run out and have sex." meanwhile the kids are already doing it, and any informative dialogue is thrown out the window.

does anyone really think we are gonna stop filesharing by just not saying the actual names of sites? really? cuz frankly, i think that's ill-informed and intensely myopic.

if people cannot speak candidly on important topics without fear of some sort of retribution, then the community loses it's vitality and diversity.

and some may think i am making a big deal about nothing, but if we lost an entire discussion because the initial post mentioned a p2p by name? that just sucks. sorry.
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Post by scoz » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:43 pm

there's two different issues that the Policy seems to cover

1 Discussing P2P / file sharing / piracy in general

2 People asking for cracks, illegal copies and the like.

Personally I see no problem with 1 and agree anything referring to 2 should be deleted. As far as I can tell on all the other message boards I'm on the same split is made. This is the only one where there appears to be no distinction between the two.

Also how far do you take this? Strictly speaking the majority of music stuff on Youtube is illegal. Do you ban Youtube threads?

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Post by seckle » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:24 pm

please take a look at our forum rule regarding piracy.
http://www.dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11491

this isn't new policy. we're not trying to end p2p or stop it. this is about not allowing the forum to be used to broadcast p2p info.

both recent threads have had enough information to give people a road map to releases that aren't even out yet!!! both of these threads were left online for hours before taken down, so it's not as if we're deleting things on sight!

this is what cannot be allowed in p2p threads:
-names of releases available on specifically named networks.
-discussions of rooms, or forums where tunes can be found.
-names of tune ripping groups.

debates about general filesharing/p2p issues have always been and will always be welcome as long as people avoid being specific.

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Post by two » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:46 pm

Why does having the thread stopped have to be more justified beyond the simple fact that some artists are torn, if not out right against having there music disseminated this way? The fact of the matter is that many musicians are on here and the giddy/greedy glee with which some people pirate and distribute their music can be offensive and is out of place on this forum as it currently stands. Without these people there would be nothing to talk about; respecting them by not rubbing such a highly contentious and personally frustrating issue in their face is not much to ask. No ones civil rights are being trampled and the sky will not fall if filesharing talk is omitted here. Any who want to discuss such things are free to do so on a host of other forums or better yet start your own.

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Post by djshiva » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:10 am

two wrote:Why does having the thread stopped have to be more justified beyond the simple fact that some artists are torn, if not out right against having there music disseminated this way? The fact of the matter is that many musicians are on here and the giddy/greedy glee with which some people pirate and distribute their music can be offensive and is out of place on this forum as it currently stands. Without these people there would be nothing to talk about; respecting them by not rubbing such a highly contentious and personally frustrating issue in their face is not much to ask. No ones civil rights are being trampled and the sky will not fall if filesharing talk is omitted here. Any who want to discuss such things are free to do so on a host of other forums or better yet start your own.
my point is that when i last saw the thread, we were discussing ways to watermark tunes, and how to address filesharing with those who are doing it, and encouraging those people to support the artists. and that discussion was the proverbial baby gettin' tossed with the bathwater. that's my issue.

i totally understand the motivation for not wanting the specifics for filesharing broadcast to the world, don't get me wrong. i just think we can lose the good stuff like discussion and debate (and fresh new ideas to counteract the piracy too) when we try and put shit on lockdown.

p.s. also bummed cuz there was a neat link to a way to embed images in music files, and i was gonna come back and read it more thoroughly. and now it's gone and that's a shame.
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Post by seckle » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:34 am

sapphic_beats wrote:
wascal wrote:1. Download Coagula: http://hem.passagen.se/rasmuse/Coagula.htm

2. Draw a different image for each person you send your dubs to and convert to a wave file. The wave files usually sound ok, kind of Tipper style fx sweeps..

3. Check the file through your spectral analyzer to make sure it shows up when you play it back.

4. Drop this sample somewhere in your tune where it isnt too noticable but will still be heard if it end up on a mixtape etc. Go back to your spectral analyzer and make sure it still shows up when you play it back.

5. Send out your dubs to everyone you normally would and make a note of which dj got which watermarked tune.

6. Watch your tune appear on soulseek months before release and know exactly who the leaker is.

Safe.

PS. this is pretty much the same thing as the aphex face at the end of Windowlicker: http://www.bastwood.com/aphex.php

:idea:
that is seriously the coolest thing EVER.

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Post by RubiconMan » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:42 am

it was a good link ey..
i can only remember the program that can be used on a mac.
http://uisoftware.com/MetaSynth/
edit, found next link,
http://www.bastwood.com/aphex.php
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Post by two » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:47 am

p.s. also bummed cuz there was a neat link to a way to embed images in music files, and i was gonna come back and read it more thoroughly. and now it's gone and that's a shame.[/quote]


Then why not simply put your energy into starting a new thread about those ideas in the first place instead of trying to make a broader point about filesharing. It's pretty easy to do and saves time on all the conflict and endless discussion.

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Post by djshiva » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:59 am

two wrote:p.s. also bummed cuz there was a neat link to a way to embed images in music files, and i was gonna come back and read it more thoroughly. and now it's gone and that's a shame.

Then why not simply put your energy into starting a new thread about those ideas in the first place instead of trying to make a broader point about filesharing. It's pretty easy to do and saves time on all the conflict and endless discussion.[/quote]

because that was not my only point. the discussion was happening, and now it's actually been removed. i can start another thread sure, and probably will. but if someone slips and uses the word *ohmygawdseek* or *gasptorrent*, then it goes away. just kinda heavy-handed, IMNSHO.

personally, i like discussion. it's a damn bit more interesting to me than 50 threads of "OMFGZ this tune is BIG!". i mean i contribute to those too, but that's certainly the least interesting in terms of stuff i care to read/contribute to. surely there's room for all of it...

i like to use my skull as something other than a soundwave absorber. and i do happen to have some questions and ideas(just in general, not just on this forum) about the nature of the internet, and internet community...as regards free speech and authority/self-determination. meaning...when is a forum owned and ruled with an iron hand (exaggerating to make a point) and when does the community itself begin to take part in rulemaking (whether "officially" or just as a matter of socially accepted behavior)?

these are just questions i have in general that happened to come out of my keyboard after this because the thread deletion was the catalyst. basically i am philosophizing and asking people to join me. perhaps i am in the wrong place for some intellectualizin'. who knows. maybe i am making something out of nothing. dunno that either. it just got me thinkin' and yes, kinda grated on me as well.

so there ya have it. thanks for tuning in for this installment of "shiva likes to ramble, rant and debate". come again!
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scoz
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Post by scoz » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:14 am

no offense intended to those who are 100% legit but

how many of the artists complaining about file sharing are using 100% legit software?

next, which do you think is worse, sharing music for no monetary gain or using illegitimate software for potential monetary gain?

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Post by bob crunkhouse » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:28 am

scoz wrote:no offense intended to those who are 100% legit but

how many of the artists complaining about file sharing are using 100% legit software?

next, which do you think is worse, sharing music for no monetary gain or using illegitimate software for potential monetary gain?
agreed
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Post by human? » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:15 am

its a private forum, free speech does not (and should not) apply...

communites are defined notsomuch by what they do, as much as what they DONT do.... people everywhere are the same, its taboos & law that define a culture....

in the interest of progress, its up to every privately owned forum to decide what they consider appropriate....


give thanks for the dubstepforum.com..... its been a invaluable resource...

respect due seckle... flex your iron fist when you see fit, good moderation is key to forum stability.

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Post by djshiva » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:43 am

human? wrote:its a private forum, free speech does not (and should not) apply...

communites are defined notsomuch by what they do, as much as what they DONT do.... people everywhere are the same, its taboos & law that define a culture....

in the interest of progress, its up to every privately owned forum to decide what they consider appropriate....


give thanks for the dubstepforum.com..... its been a invaluable resource...

respect due seckle... flex your iron fist when you see fit, good moderation is key to forum stability.

one
human?
you are right. at the end of the day, someone has to pay for the servers, so it is a privately owned forum. but then you have thousands of people using said forum. then the other thing you said applies as well. "people everywhere are the same, its taboos & law that define a culture." so who defines the taboos and laws throughout culture? only an authoritariuan figure? or those individuals who make up the culture? and is money the ultimate indicator of who has a say? do we carry these cultural inequities into our communicative lives as well? notice i am asking questions, not necessarily in the hopes that any of us have a "right" answer...more to spur some continued discussion. sorry...i guess i am bored.

i see both the advantages and disadvantages of forum moderation/tight rules/ironclad policies. i have been on some unmoderated forums that were a nightmare of internet trolls and vindictive, hurtful assholes hiding behind their anonymity, and i have seen moderated forums that turned into little tyrannies based on scene politics and cronyism. neither is something i am fond of. that's why this question is always an interesting one to me. there are similar debates going around the nets regarding "internet codes of conduct" (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/09/techn ... e1&ei=5070), and i guess i have now been distracted from the simple thread deletion and have moved onto ruminating upon the larger concepts.

and by the way, questioning the rules and policies of the forum does not mean i have any less appreciation for its contributions to the larger dubstep community. far from it...it means i believe we all have a vested interest in its continuation and vitality, and for that reason alone i don't want it to become some heavy-handed, dour, no-fun authoritarian crap-pile.

just more thoughts to ruminate on. taking a break from the studio again...
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scoz
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Post by scoz » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:42 am

human? wrote:communites are defined notsomuch by what they do, as much as what they DONT do.... people everywhere are the same, its taboos & law that define a culture....
communities are also defined by the ability to question rules and laws they think are wrong. to some censorship is a taboo.

also if you have a rule you have to apply it equally. so as it seems the strict end of the rule is being applied, ie deletion. in that case, most youtube posts/threads should be deleted, also threads with links to recordings off of radio stations should be deleted, particularly BBC Radio 1 there's a reason why you can only listen again for a week. they are both links to blatant piracy but they both seem to be acceptable.

technically as far as the BPI (UK equivalent of the RIAA) even having a dj mix up with a track listing is illegal. someone I know had a website that got a take down or be sued notice all because a track from a now defunct record label, that the BPI represented, was included in a mix that he was hosting.

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