Atheism

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AxeD
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Re: Atheism

Post by AxeD » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:10 pm

C: He put in a bunch of random values.. ctrl+p and we came out.
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DJoe
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Re: Atheism

Post by DJoe » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:13 pm

dont most theistic ppl who arent extremist nutters/creationists just believe that god started the universe leading to the creation of all things.
that sort of entry level argument against the existence of what you percieve some ppl to believe in as god does noone any favours. just a bit reductionist and meaningless.
i dont believe in god, but that arguments just retarded.
youve given two conclusions that youve come to and just assumed theyre the only ones you can come too.
try harder innit
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DJoe
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Re: Atheism

Post by DJoe » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:14 pm

there you go. axed just came to another conclusion thats just as 'logical' as yours
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Re: Atheism

Post by _Agu_ » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:30 pm

Sure, maybe it happened exactly how AxeD said. However if I'm not completely wrong, by common belief, God didn't just say "fuck it, let them do what they want" and leave us on our own. People pray for him in the hope of him helping them in their life somehow.

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Re: Atheism

Post by DJoe » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:38 pm

yeah some people do. not really sure where you're going with this. is that common belief? or what you think is common belief?
im pretty sure thats what most the people who call themselves christian in the uk believe.

theres a distinction between someone who is a theist and someone who literally believes religious texts
praying to god is generally a comfort thing. its nice to ritually do something or to think theres something out there looking out for you. its not an admission that praying to god works literally at all. certainly not proof of a contradiction in all people who believe in there being a 'god'.
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Re: Atheism

Post by _Agu_ » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:01 pm

DJoe wrote:yeah some people do. not really sure where you're going with this. is that common belief? or what you think is common belief?
Sorry I probably weren't clear enough.

I'm pretty sure that it is a common belief among those who actually 100% believe in God, in the religious way. I weren't talking about "hobbyists" who like to think there's some sort of higher power, but don't actually believe in God for real. I'm talking about people who do and don't do certain things because bible or any other religious book/text says so.

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Re: Atheism

Post by DJoe » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:09 pm

yeah noones really debating that its pretty silly to word for word follow religious texts that are ver a thousand years old. do you even know anyone that does that. the onlly ppl i know are a few muslim kids who went to my school but they didnt really make friends with non muslim people anyway.

i think thats probably already been adressed in this thread lol
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DJoe
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Re: Atheism

Post by DJoe » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:18 pm

i would say most people in england are what you call hobbyists but are also 100% religious though. 59.5% are christian but only 12% go to church
so most people 100% believe in a chirstian god but only about a quarter of them go to church
of those 12% of people who go to church. how many do you think believe that theres not such thing as evolution for example. even the pope says evolution exists. and the anglican church has for a while.
and evolution with theistic religion pretty much means that god created the universe and then let it take its course

basically i dont think that its common belief at all.
its pretty much a non issue.
Last edited by DJoe on Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atheism

Post by DJoe » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:21 pm

basically i dont think that your argument can be applied to the majority of people who believe in god (in the uk anyway) and used to show that theyre silly for believing in a god
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Re: Atheism

Post by _Agu_ » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:34 pm

DJoe wrote:do you even know anyone that does that.
Just some randoms who I've spoke with. Also my friend had on of his relatives to become religious in the "obey-the-bible" way. He jumped into front of the train in the end, but don't know if it had anything to do with religion tho, I'm not sure if he was totally sane either.. But yeah, I think most ultra-religious people stick to themselves these days. It's not middle-age anymore after all.

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Re: Atheism

Post by DrGatineau » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:48 pm

DJoe wrote:i would say most people in england are what you call hobbyists but are also 100% religious though. 59.5% are christian but only 12% go to church
so most people 100% believe in a chirstian god but only about a quarter of them go to church
of those 12% of people who go to church. how many do you think believe that theres not such thing as evolution for example. even the pope says evolution exists. and the anglican church has for a while.
and evolution with theistic religion pretty much means that god created the universe and then let it take its course

basically i dont think that its common belief at all.
its pretty much a non issue.
This is something that I've been interested in for a while - the difference between people who claim to be believers and people who actually do believe.

I don't know the exact numbers, but this is also true in america. around 77% identify as "Christian" in polls but only less than like 20% of Americans actually attend mass more than twice per year (and that number is dropping every year).

A lot of people will disagree with me here, but I don't think the segment of the population that claims to be Christian but doesn't practice is really Christian at all or even believes in God. Like truly believes, without any doubt, that God exists. They will probably say they believe in God, but if they were hooked up to a lie detector hypotetically (don't overreact to a thought experiment dsf) and told that they, or someone close to them, would be killed if they didn't tell the truth, I believe they would all say no, they don't really believe. I actually think most of the 12% that practice would probably also say that they don't believe. There's only a very, very small portion that I think actually believes, speaking from a psychological point of view.

They try to convince themselves to believe because they want the "perks" of religion (heaven and shit), but I think (most) people are fundamentally rational, and that modern day evidence is indisputable for most people (i don't know a hard number but i'd guess less than 5% manage to truly (lie detector and all that) convince themselves that there's a world in the sky where you'll meet your ancestors).
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ultraspatial
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Re: Atheism

Post by ultraspatial » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:23 pm

christianity isn't the only religion out there you know. and not all christians are evangelicals

also what undisputable evidence are you talking about?

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Re: Atheism

Post by nousd » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:30 pm

and a lot of Christians admit to doubts, including priests
that's why it's called a "faith" which ultimately depends upon belief beyond what can be proved rationally

this is an aspect of Christianity I find endearing
because it allows for choice and is inherently optimistic
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Re: Atheism

Post by DrGatineau » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:53 pm

ultraspatial wrote:christianity isn't the only religion out there you know. and not all christians are evangelicals

also what undisputable evidence are you talking about?
true that, it's not the only religion out there. i except the same is also true to a certain extent for Muslims, Jewish people, Hindus, etc, but I don't feel that I am in the position to speculate on how large that extent is because I am most familiar with Christians having grown up and been surrounded by mostly Christians (as well as some Jewish people), with many being in my family. I'm also only really speaking about american christians. i am most familiar with not just christians but american christians.

as to what indisputable evidence, I suppose I'm referring to the blatant lack of evidence for the existence of heaven/god (i think this might be a different conversation though).
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Re: Atheism

Post by bRRRz » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:07 am

nousd wrote:and a lot of Christians admit to doubts, including priests
that's why it's called a "faith" which ultimately depends upon belief beyond what can be proved rationally

this is an aspect of Christianity I find endearing
because it allows for choice and is inherently optimistic
True, christians see it that way. My girlfriend is really religious but I simply don't know where Christians get their optimism from. The only "evidence" there would be for the Christian God is the Bible. And if you read that you start to realize that, at least the way he is portrayed there, he might not be the most pleasant or forgiving figure.
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Re: Atheism

Post by Ricky_Spanish » Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:56 pm

morgengabe wrote:hjdfljkd fhdskfhdsklfhds fdhsjk;hfdjsl;hfsjdkl; fhdsjkl;hfsldkfs etc....quote]

Yeah, innit.
[/quote]

pro tip: try making sense, dont just quote someone then garble the words like retarded school kid.

scspkr99 wrote:
Ricky_Spanish wrote:What kind of idiot (rickyarbino) would argue that atheism is a religion. I don't even give it a name. In exactly the same way that I don't give a name to not believing that herds of unicorns escape from people's assholes when they go to sleep every night.

In the scope of this thread, theism's belief system is based 100% on 'faith', as there is not one single particle of evidence. Atheism's "belief system" is the scientific method, ie believing in things only when there is evidence and experimental verification, is that a religion?

There is not one single reason to believe in God. What exactly is 'God'. How is it anything other than the psychological construct of recently evolved hairless monkeys as a way to combat the fear of death and the apparent meaninglessness of our existence?
I agree that it's a mistake to consider Atheism a religion, it's a pretty clear one it's then a mistake to consider that Atheism's belief system is the scientific method, the two highlighted sections of your post are contradictory, you can't claim on the one hand that atheism is just a lack of belief while claiming the scientific method for it.
I put belief system in inverted commas, I would be classed as atheist because I have no belief in a god. I don't specifically state there is no god, I just don't believe in one because there is no reason or evidence for it. As is the case for most atheists, the actual proposition that 'there is no god' is just a reaction to the religious assertion that there is, if nobody ever postulated a god then there would be no atheism.

So is believing only in things that are verifably true a belief system? If I believe that Elvis materialises from under your bed and licks you in your sleep, do you then have a belief system if you don't believe that? Do you have a belief system to describe every possible concept for which there is no evidence, that is absurd.

The semantics of the words we have of this are completely unimportant and not worth discussing. In fact the point of this thread is utterly meaningless as the op merely wanted to moan about atheists.

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Re: Atheism

Post by scspkr99 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:11 pm

I don't care whether belief system is in inverted commas or not it's simply wrong.

I'd also be careful with verifably true, verificationism is generally rejected as self defeating and if you only believe that which can be considered true indubitably then you end up believing not very much at all beyond some necessary truths. Again I've mentioned this before some pages back atheism can be understood both as the refusal to assent to the proposition there is a god and as assent to the proposition there is no god, both equally valid in my opinion but distinct. One of which may be considered a belief the other merely the lack of a belief.

I think you are presenting a particularly narrow view of theism, of what constitutes evidence, especially if you wanted to defend some kind of bayesian rationality, I think you present a singular impression of atheism while the truth is more complex and if you consider the meaning of words completely unimportant I'm not sure how you converse.

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Re: Atheism

Post by Ricky_Spanish » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:23 pm

scspkr99 wrote:I don't care whether belief system is in inverted commas or not it's simply wrong.

I'd also be careful with verifably true, verificationism is generally rejected as self defeating and if you only believe that which can be considered true indubitably then you end up believing not very much at all beyond some necessary truths. Again I've mentioned this before some pages back atheism can be understood both as the refusal to assent to the proposition there is a god and as assent to the proposition there is no god, both equally valid in my opinion but distinct. One of which may be considered a belief the other merely the lack of a belief.

I think you are presenting a particularly narrow view of theism, of what constitutes evidence, especially if you wanted to defend some kind of bayesian rationality, I think you present a singular impression of atheism while the truth is more complex and if you consider the meaning of words completely unimportant I'm not sure how you converse.
I have no belief in a god. Is that a belief system? No, unless as I have already said: you would then have a belief system to describe every possible concept for which there is no evidence, that is absurd.

question 1: if nobody ever postulated a god would there would be atheism?
scspkr99 wrote:
I'd also be careful with verifably true, verificationism is generally rejected as self defeating...
You mean the scientific method right: prediction/verification? Cosmology/physics/chemistry/biology, it's all a crock huh?
scspkr99 wrote:
... and if you only believe that which can be considered true indubitably then you end up believing not very much at all beyond some necessary truths.
lol, you say that like it's a problem, or even unwise.What is wrong about that exactly? And why is it not very much? who said anything about 'indubitably true?' I take a probablistic approach. quantum mechanics can pin nature down to 13 decimal places,
scspkr99 wrote:
I think you are presenting a particularly narrow view of theism, of what constitutes evidence
My view is that there is no reason beyond human psychology to pose the premise at all.

question 2: name one piece of evidence or even an objective, reason that isn't rooted in human psychology to beleive in a god?
scspkr99 wrote:
if you consider the meaning of words completely unimportant I'm not sure how you converse.
If you want to argue about things of substance, ie make claims that can be falsified then go ahead. If you want to talk about the terms 'athiest', 'atheism','theism', or 'belief system', like they mean anything important then go ahead, but with someone else if you please.

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Re: Atheism

Post by SignalRecon » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:26 pm

This was a good bit


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Re: Atheism

Post by faultier » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:19 pm

_Agu_ wrote:If God created everything (humans, animals, trees, planets etc.), why he made humans to be able to not to believe in him. Why he gave us ability to do things which are wrong according to the bible. Why he made the world that has so many fucked up things, when he could turn things around any time?

Conclusion A: There's no God.

Conclusion B: There's God, and he acts like a kid with mental disorder who plays with his hamsters and flushes them down a toilet when he gets tired of 'em.
may i suggest

Conclusion C: there's a god and you and i are probably not in a position to comprehend/appreciate the ways in which he operates

edit: bonus question for extra points: if there's a god does he have to abide to a morality or guidelines of some sorts and if so, who established said morality and why is that entity above "god"?

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