Ferguson riots

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by soronery » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:46 pm

magma wrote:In b4 nowaysj tells us this happens to white people in fancy dress all the time.
obviously youve never been to comic con

its a bloodbath

but its mainly virgin blood so good for the skin
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by collige » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:49 pm

The whole situations is extraordinarily fucked up. I just saw this today:
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watc ... 4273731666

tl:dr the assistant DA handed out copies of a law to the jurors that was ruled unconstitutional in 1985.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by hubb » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:52 pm

magma wrote:Police "justified" in shooting a (yes, Black) cosplayer four times in the back because of his toy sword.

http://gawker.com/surveillance-video-sh ... 1663417341

In b4 nowaysj tells us this happens to white people in fancy dress all the time.
aaahh come one ... noone is really arguing the justification ... we should be open to different attempts at explainations still
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:56 pm

magma wrote:
nowaysj wrote:Read back in the thread. It is almost 4 here, it is now sleepytime theology.
Surprise, surprise. Nowaysj can't be bothered to back up his claims.
My claims are in this thread in black and white for you to read but surprise surprise you've been uninvolved and feel like you can pop in and swing your dick around. If you want to take part in the conversation, read the conversation.

I'll make a deal with you though, next time you want a response, pm me your number and I'll call you at 4am to discuss it.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:02 pm

https://www.law.upenn.edu/live/news/217 ... HdhOFWsWlM

From the University of Pennsylvania Law School

New study by Prof. David Abrams and co-authors confirms racial bias in criminal sentencing.

They accept racial factors are hard to isolate but find ultimately that there is racial bias in sentencing in the US
“The problem with that is you still leave the possibility that any differences you see are due to unobserved variables, differences that might be there but that you can’t control for,” Abrams says. “That might be demeanor in the courtroom, it might be the quality of the attorney you can afford, it might be some details about the crime that you might not capture in your data. If those things are correlated with race, which they probably are, you’re not going to know whether the effect you think you’re detecting is really race or is something else.”
They look at what they call the “racial gap” in sentencing – the difference between sentences for black defendants and white defendants – and find that it varies across judges, showing that race is affecting sentencing decisions. “We find evidence of significant inter-judge disparity in the racial gap in incarceration rates, providing support for the model where at least some judges treat defendants differently based on their race,” Abrams and his co-authors note in the study. “The magnitude of this effect is substantial. The gap in incarceration rates between White and African-American defendants increases by 18 percentage points (compared to a mean incarceration rate of 51% for African-Americans and 38% for Whites) when moving from the 10th to 90th percentile judge in the racial gap distribution.”
Also from the report but referencing social science investigations in medicine
In fact, there is evidence for that belief from the world of medicine. Social science research there has shown that physicians’ immediate, unconscious reactions to racial minorities lead them to undertreat black patients.
From another report on policing and sentencing in Illinois
In Cook County, African Americans with the lowest level felony drug possession charge (i.e., Class 4) were sentenced to prison at a rate almost five times greater than whites: 19% of AfricanAmerican defendants vs. 4% of white defendants.
So if judges doctors and the entire judiciary of Illinois is suspect so is the entire US judicial system given that these are not unique cases. Yes there may be greater criminality amongst the poor and black people are certainly disproportionately represented among them but even allowing from crime rates arrest prosection and sentencing rates are racially biased. The problem with identifying racism both personal and institutional is that it does not require the individual or the institution to intend to discriminate, it occurs because of factors embedded into our society and ignoring them means you don't get to address them.

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:21 pm

magma wrote:Police "justified" in shooting a (yes, Black) cosplayer four times in the back because of his toy sword.

http://gawker.com/surveillance-video-sh ... 1663417341

In b4 nowaysj tells us this happens to white people in fancy dress all the time.

Ooooooor you could read the article and look at the pretty picture and see that he was not dressed up, but instead was in street clothes and purportedly swung and lunged at the police with the sword.

You'd be more informed if you didn't stop reading at the headline.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:45 pm

scspkr99 wrote:It's a fucking outrageous claim to be fair. It's also clearly wrong unless he accepts that the judicial system is unable to sanction cops killing white people.
It is not outrageous at all. There have been many police shootings of white suspects since MB, and one nearly at the same time that was similar. The officers returned to work, all's well that ends well. Did you hear about them? Don't google, what were some of the victims' names? Did the victims parents speak at the UN?

There is a very real policing problem here in the states, for white and black people, and probably disproportionately for black people, but when you guys jump at every false trigger fed to you by the MSM you weaken the cause. They give you these cases to get behind because they are losing cases. Zimmerman was obvious self defense, the facts were wildly misrepresented to create maximum emotional impact, so that when the real facts came to light, people couldn't let go of that emotional trauma, and turned to ignoring the truth. See Phigure. When you step away from the truth, you become weak, your cause weakens.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:09 pm

collige wrote:The whole situations is extraordinarily fucked up. I just saw this today:
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watc ... 4273731666

tl:dr the assistant DA handed out copies of a law to the jurors that was ruled unconstitutional in 1985.
You're a smart guy collige, read the Supreme Court decision, don't let msnbc twist your mind.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:03 pm

nowaysj wrote: It is not outrageous at all. There have been many police shootings of white suspects since MB, and one nearly at the same time that was similar. The officers returned to work, all's well that ends well. Did you hear about them? Don't google, what were some of the victims' names? Did the victims parents speak at the UN?

There is a very real policing problem here in the states, for white and black people, and probably disproportionately for black people, but when you guys jump at every false trigger fed to you by the MSM you weaken the cause. They give you these cases to get behind because they are losing cases. Zimmerman was obvious self defense, the facts were wildly misrepresented to create maximum emotional impact, so that when the real facts came to light, people couldn't let go of that emotional trauma, and turned to ignoring the truth. See Phigure. When you step away from the truth, you become weak, your cause weakens.
It's outrageous because it portrays white people as subject to discrimination at the hands of police because of the international attention given to police actions taken against black people. You are arguing that the international focus constrains the police in killing at will while suggesting that focus is wrong, by implication your argument reduces to one where these constraints on the police killing black people should be removed. Rather we should increase the constraints on all police killings and that would generally mean charging more than 40 of 2700 justifiable homicides.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/police-r ... 1416874955

In any case you are correct I wasn't aware of the other case nor am I familiar with other cases in which white people have been killed by police officers. However I only know of Michael Brown, Tamir Rice and Amadou Diallo as black people killed by police. There over 2700 justified homicides by police between 2004 and 2011 and I know the name of 1. Even if race is not a factor in an event it's important because of the background, our predispositions and responses are subject to incredible cognitive bias and to fail to address them irrespective of whether they factor is to lose the chance to address them.

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by Harkat » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:08 pm

Isn't the international media in the first place involved because of the protests, the massive militaristic police presence, the rioting and the looting?

Now of course the race discusssion is happening, because of all of the above.

If people took to the streets in such a way, cops and protesters, over a white guy getting shot of course the international press would make a story of it. The big story is ferguson, not MB.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:07 pm

scspkr99 wrote:It's outrageous because it portrays white people as subject to discrimination at the hands of police because of the international attention given to police actions taken against black people.
International is only given as a measure of the absurdity of the reach of these farcical stories.

It is not that white people are subject to discrimination at the hands of police, it is that their deaths are ignored by the MSM because of their race, it is discrimination at the hands of the MSM.

If you reply, I can not respond as I have an appointment to kill a bird whose feathers are mostly black. :Q:
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:13 pm

Harkat wrote:Isn't the international media in the first place involved because of the protests, the massive militaristic police presence, the rioting and the looting?

Now of course the race discusssion is happening, because of all of the above.

If people took to the streets in such a way, cops and protesters, over a white guy getting shot of course the international press would make a story of it. The big story is ferguson, not MB.
While I think this is true I think that the interesting question is why the protests over Michael Brown and Dillon Taylor were so different.
Last edited by scspkr99 on Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by scspkr99 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:15 pm

nowaysj wrote: International is only given as a measure of the absurdity of the reach of these farcical stories.

It is not that white people are subject to discrimination at the hands of police, it is that their deaths are ignored by the MSM because of their race, it is discrimination at the hands of the MSM
You said
the actual discrimination is that police are free to kill white suspects at will
This is clearly not the case as my original objection noted. And I would much prefer to be discriminated against after I am dead than be discriminated against in such a way as to increase the chance I die.

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nousd » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:27 pm

nobody wrote:
a summary of what this fella says:
1.slavery was shit
2.racism exists & probably always will
3.police abuse their power &, being human, they probably always will
4.we are responsible for ourselves
5.if your life is messed up, it's not because of slavery
6.when you're in a big hole, you've gotta try & dig your way out of it
7.legal racial discrimination has been fought & overturned...we (blacks) won
8.if your life is messed up, look in the mirror
9.sometimes you can't help your situation-being poor, living in the ghetto-so all you can do is your best to get out of it
10.stop messing up your neighbourhoods...white people aren't sneaking in to graffiti, urinate or sell crack...clean it up, keep it clean
11. report people who are messing it up, film them, get them prosecuted
12. teach your kids...better they be educated & have a job than only have cute swagger
13.police violence is triggered by crime...no crime, no police reaction, no need to march
14.Trayvon Martin situation: was wrong, a shame
15. so why is peoples' first reaction to seeing a black man to wonder what he's up to?
16.the perception we give people, through the way we act, the way we carry ourselves leads them suspect us
17.and many young black men DO have criminal records
18.for which they often serve longer sentences than non-blacks
19.but no crime, no time
20.stop glorifying ignorance
21.rap lifestyle leaves you dead or in jail
22.this discourse was had with 90s films such as Boyz in Tha Hood & the message made clear: change our perception of ourselves
23.by changing our own perception we will change the way others see us.
24.if you want to stop cops harassing you, stop giving them a reason
25.want to stop being pulled over for Driving While Black? Don't be mad at the cop, be mad at the brothers who bring this about.
26.if the cop finds you've got a warrant, drugs, a gun then he's justified and he'll keep doing it
27. gotta stop doing the same thing & expecting a different outcome
28. have pride
29. it's not always someone else's fault

so this guy's an Uncle Tom eh?
too obsequious,
too ready to condemn the actions of his peers,
too simplistic about cause and effect
not outraged enough about the injustices
not nuanced enough about certain situations
probably grew up middle class with a working dad & intact family
doesn't know what it's like to come from the slums & a crackhead mum

tbrh, I'm glad I'm not American, glad I'm not a woman, glad I'm not black
which is a really disgusting thing to be writing
but it's true
it's my reality
just as this guy is opining about his reality
his way of dealing with his reality
his thoughts on what needs to be done

but, unlike me, because I'm white, male, Australian
whose opinion can be dismissed as uninformed, eccentric or biased,
this guy's view is dangerous
not because he's an Uncle Tom confirming the racist premise that it's all their fault because they are inferior
but because he's advocating a radical change
first of perception & then of action

a change that needs doing
that people know needs doing
that people have been doing

meanwhile his message will be manipulated or misconstrued to suit the powers that be
and black vested interests will resist its influence
the resentful & angry will find reason to fault it

but here's the thing:
Let's say I'm a good ol boy died in the wool bigot.
I'm gunna be way more nervous of this guy
& his potential effect on my position of entitlement,
his possibly wooing my milky-white daughter
and moving into the mansion next door
than any bad-mouthed, drug-peddling ghetto pimp.
This guy's smart, he's seen past the fence I've put around him.
He's not even worried about his own kind's approbrium.
He's his own man.

Now, let's say I'm me again.
An educated white fella subject to cultural conditioning,
aware of my racism, trying to confront it, hopefully dispell it.
But subject to all the usual pressures...finding love, economic security, social status, a sense of meaning, staying healthy, supporting family.
Who am I gunna befriend?
A. The ghetto dealer who can provide me my salve & a sense of being cool for associating with a bad-arse blackman,
whose home life I can ignore, whose dreams I can assume involve making money & staying alive long enough to fuck young whores in swank hotels.
Or
B. a confident competitor who has demonstrated that he can overcome impediments way more effectively than me,
whose friendship would need to be earned by his judging me worthy
whose respect would need to be earned by my demonstrating decency, fairness & common humanity.

Yep, you're right...the former.
It's easier to stick with stereotypes.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by magma » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:13 am

magma wrote: four times in the back
I stripped out all the irrelevant stuff.

When does a cop ever need (sorry, have justification to shoot a man running away from him armed with something only of any use at close range.... in a playground duel?
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nowaysj wrote:I wholeheartedly believe that Michael Brown's mother and father killed him.

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:55 am

Because the guy has already used deadly force and is likely to imminently use deadly force against the officers or the community at large.

It honestly sounds like you're blaming cliffs for people jumping off them.

I'll straight up tell you, fuck the police, the only person to put a gun up to my head was a (black) police officer, epic BUT, if you attack the police with a sword you're going to get shot, and I'll support any police officer who shoots someone who attacks them with a sword, even if he is running away with the sword. If he drops the sword, I think armed pursuit is still in order, and if the suspect turns back and charges the police, even without a sword, shoot until the threat is neutralized.

Anybody that doesn't believe that use of force is appropriate is welcome to join their local police force and work the ghetto. Keep in mind there is a good chance someone else will be banging your wife and raising your kid.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:12 am

scspkr99 wrote:
nowaysj wrote: International is only given as a measure of the absurdity of the reach of these farcical stories.

It is not that white people are subject to discrimination at the hands of police, it is that their deaths are ignored by the MSM because of their race, it is discrimination at the hands of the MSM
You said
the actual discrimination is that police are free to kill white suspects at will
This is clearly not the case as my original objection noted. And I would much prefer to be discriminated against after I am dead than be discriminated against in such a way as to increase the chance I die.
Okay I'm getting confused now, as the conversation has been interrupted and I must write with the quickness, but the police can kill white and hispanic suspects without consequence, there will be no nation-wide 24 hour media blitz as there is when a black suspect is shot. That is the bottom line.

And again as stated earlier in this thread, the police shot an unarmed white man who was taking no aggressive action, it was a clear example of the unwarranted use of deadly force by the police, while at the same time the police used justified force against MB who was actively attacking the police officer. The media focuses on the black case spewing all kinds of falsehoods, while completely ignoring the white case. That is discrimination.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by scspkr99 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:00 am

nowaysj wrote: Okay I'm getting confused now, as the conversation has been interrupted and I must write with the quickness, but the police can kill white and hispanic suspects without consequence, there will be no nation-wide 24 hour media blitz as there is when a black suspect is shot. That is the bottom line.

And again as stated earlier in this thread, the police shot an unarmed white man who was taking no aggressive action, it was a clear example of the unwarranted use of deadly force by the police, while at the same time the police used justified force against MB who was actively attacking the police officer. The media focuses on the black case spewing all kinds of falsehoods, while completely ignoring the white case. That is discrimination.
It's not discrimination as Harkat points out up thread the media attention is a result of the community response to Michael Brown's death. How many people are killed by the police on average? I don't have the latest figures but those I oculd find suggests over 1 person per day between 2004-2011 how many of them do you know? Just how many people are killed by officers in the line of duty that don't result in the protests that have affected Ferguson?

What do you think should happen? I'll explain why I think your position incoherent, on the one hand you accuse the main stream media of discriminating against whites while suggesting that their reporting of Ferguson is wrong, what would you have them do, ignore the communities response? Why would you want a disaffected communites response to be ignored? You miss the point, if the community in Salt Lake responded as did the community in Ferguson then there would have been the same coverage, that isn't discrimination.

And black people are actually discriminated against, you can consider the coverage the real discrimination if you wish while the rest of the world considers the differences in sentencing where there are no other salient factors discriminatory, there are reports and studies posted in this thread, proper ones from universities and stuff right that point out where black and white suspects are treated differently. You can continue to ignore them if you wish.

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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by nowaysj » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:27 pm

scspkr99 wrote:there are reports and studies posted in this thread, proper ones from universities and stuff right that point out where black and white suspects are treated differently. You can continue to ignore them if you wish.
I'm ignoring them because they are not at issue. There are discrepancies in sentencing, there have even been discrepancies in the sentencing required by laws themselves. It is just not at issue in our conversation. More on the media coverage in a bit.
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Re: Ferguson riots

Post by magma » Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:56 pm

Some good words in this.

http://www.alternet.org/most-white-peop ... -oblivious
And most of all, the reflex to deny that there is anything racial about the lens through which we typically view law enforcement; to deny that being white has shaped our understanding of policing and their actions in places like Ferguson, even as being white has had everything to do with those matters. Racial identity shapes the way we are treated by cops, and as such, shapes the way we are likely to view them. As a general rule, nothing we do will get us shot by law enforcement: not walking around in a big box store with semi-automatic weapons (though standing in one with an air rifle gets you killed if you’re black); not assaulting two officers, even in the St. Louis area, a mere five days after Mike Brown was killed; not pointing a loaded weapon at three officers and demanding that they—the police—”drop their fucking guns;” not committing mass murder in a movie theatre before finally being taken alive; not proceeding in the wake of that event to walk around the same town in which it happened carrying a shotgun; and not killing a cop so as to spark a “revolution,” and then leading others on a two month chase through the woods before being arrested with only a few scratches.
Black people have to learn everything about white people just to stay alive. They especially and quite obviously have to know what scares us, what triggers the reptilian part of our brains and convinces us that they intend to do us harm. Meanwhile, we need know nothing whatsoever about them. We don’t have to know their history, their experiences, their hopes and dreams, or their fears. And we can go right on being oblivious to all that without consequence. It won’t be on the test, so to speak.
I think this, more than anything, is the source of our trouble when it comes to racial division in this country. The inability of white people to hear black reality—to not even know that there is one and that it differs from our own—makes it nearly impossible to move forward.
And still we pretend that one can think these things—that vast numbers of us can—and yet be capable of treating black folks fairly in the workforce, housing market, schools or in the streets; that we can, on the one hand, view the larger black community as a chaotic maelstrom of iniquity, while still managing, on the other, to treat black loan applicants, job applicants, students or random strangers as mere individuals. That we can somehow thread the needle between our grand aspirations to equanimity as Americans and our deeply internalized biases regarding broad swaths of our nation’s people.
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nowaysj wrote:I wholeheartedly believe that Michael Brown's mother and father killed him.

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