Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by hubb » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:22 pm

It's the other way around, broski !

There's a culture in american government that makes it impossible to understand the world, let alone politics. It's internal scaremongering and external scaremongering doing the rounds for years.
The rest of us has not agreed that the US gets to be the world police.

Russia is a huge country, if not an even younger union (think soviet).
they hated capitalism, wanted to spread communism, etc
capitalism is not a political system. capitalism spreads by itself which political systems like communism are set in place to deal with/meant to deal with.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by jrkhnds » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:44 pm

DrGatineau wrote:you think russia would do that? after all the memories of the cuban missle crisis, that would pretty much be declaring war to many people in america.

why does russia hate the US so much?
wrong question. you need to ask: why does the US hate Russia so much? or, to put it differently, why do american / western mass madia paint Russia as the evil shadow lurking in the east, when in the past 20 years, compared to the US or some NATO countries, the russians have been very calm and barely engaged in conflicts that have nothing to do with their security, nor endangered their claim of territorial sovereignty? every day we are confronted with news framing Russia as the bad guy; where was all the bad press when the US made their moves? and why do they hate communism so much, when clearly a majority of the american society knows nothing about the core principles and basic functioning of communism?
DrGatineau wrote: america's not trying to take cuba like russia is with ukraine and has with crimea.
if you honestly believe this, you need to read up on american history. to get a general idea how the US "takes" countries, go back to around 1892-1898 and learn a thing or two about US liberating operations in Costa Rica and Cuba. trust me, if the US gets a chance at putting Cuba under their influence, they'll take it. no matter the cost.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by DrGatineau » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:50 pm

@hubb I don't agree that the US should be the world police either. Capitalism is an economic system, yes, but that was still the reason (or at least, they could claim it was the reason) why Russia hated the US? Cause they were trying to spread communism / stop capitalism.

But now that Russia's capitalist, maybe even more capitalist than the US, I don't see any reason for why they don't like us unless it's butthurtness or similar to why the Middle East hates us.

But imo the Middle East has a fair point. America's done some fucked up, oppressive shit over there. But Russia has done way more fucked up shit than America, I don't buy them using the "stop involving yourself in our affairs" argument when they have meddled the fuck out of many other country's affairs not to mention all the awful human rights violations within their own country over the years.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by jrkhnds » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:52 pm

DrGatineau wrote: But imo the Middle East has a fair point. Russia's done some fucked up, oppressive shit over there. But America has done way more fucked up shit than Russia, I don't buy them using the "stop involving yourself in our affairs" argument when they have meddled the fuck out of many other country's affairs not to mention all the awful human rights violations within their own country over the years.
I'm fairly positive a majority of the world population outside the US would sign this after having given it some thought.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by hubb » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:54 pm

jrks post is better than mine tbf

didn't mean to sound that much like a dick but you can see from both posts how yours could be a veiwed as a little offensive/ un-informed..
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Re: US restoring relations with Cuba

Post by jrkhnds » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:56 pm

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by hubb » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:02 pm

No... I regret saying that ^now.


You are right about Putin saying something like that is ridiculous and should be checked. Ofcourse but that goes both ways.

And there's so many cues in the terms you use and the un-proven type of argumentation that you use, that I can't help but be annoyed by how american and almost brainwashed your understanding is. If you want to hear opinions outside of that, then I'm here. But you can't claim something as weak and vague as they are just worse and be taken seriously.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by OGLemon » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:10 pm

for the record, Russia was never at any point, socialistic or socialist. The main problem is people's conception of the nature of socialism. Socialism cannot exist in one country. It's a global order, just as capitalism is a global order today.

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by faultier » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:17 pm

^what jrkhnds said

also
like russia is with ukraine and has with crimea.
lol, please go and read something about Victoria Nuland and her involvement in the US backed izan coup in Ukraine

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by DrGatineau » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:23 pm

jrkhnds wrote:
DrGatineau wrote:you think russia would do that? after all the memories of the cuban missle crisis, that would pretty much be declaring war to many people in america.

why does russia hate the US so much?
wrong question. you need to ask: why does the US hate Russia so much? or, to put it differently, why do american / western mass madia paint Russia as the evil shadow lurking in the east, when in the past 20 years, compared to the US or some NATO countries, the russians have been very calm and barely engaged in conflicts that have nothing to do with their security, nor endangered their claim of territorial sovereignty? every day we are confronted with news framing Russia as the bad guy; where was all the bad press when the US made their moves? and why do they hate communism so much, when clearly a majority of the american society knows nothing about the core principles and basic functioning of communism?
there definitely are tons of rednecks in the US that hate russia, but most of the liberal/educated crowd couldn't really care less about russia (aside from if they try to take countries or regions that clearly violate international law). so i still think that asking why (some people in) russia hates america is a fair question. asking why some people in the US hate russia is also a fair question.

i think there's been plenty of bad press when america has done shitty things in the middle east or elsewhere, much of it coming from american media. you hear about the recent torture reports, for example?

people who "hate" communism (and I use quotations because it's ridiculous to hate communism) are just uneducated and indoctrinated idiots. but there are plenty of people in america that understand that there is nothing "evil" about communism and that a little bit of communism/socialism would probably be good for america.
jrkhnds wrote:
DrGatineau wrote: america's not trying to take cuba like russia is with ukraine and has with crimea.
if you honestly believe this, you need to read up on american history. to get a general idea how the US "takes" countries, go back to around 1892-1898 and learn a thing or two about US liberating operations in Costa Rica and Cuba. trust me, if the US gets a chance at putting Cuba under their influence, they'll take it. no matter the cost.
lol, america would not try to annex cuba, that's ridiculous. america has no want or need to do that. it would never happen, or at least not for a very, very long time, only if things were to massively change. america has certainly done it's fair share of empire building, no doubt. but I don't think that because a country did something in the 1800s, it follows that it would act the same way 120 years later. america hasn't annexed any land since the 1950s and the empire in the pacific has been largely scaled back since the 1800s.

would america manipulate cuba for it's resources? sure. america would do that to many countries. but I don't see america annexing cuba.

if the US were to "put cuba under its influence" (ie make cuba an ally?), that wouldn't be a bad thing per se. i think cuba would probably become modernized and largely benefit. america would probably get something out of it, seeing as we tend not to meddle unless we get something out of it, but that's not in itself bad for cuba.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by DrGatineau » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:27 pm

jrkhnds wrote:
DrGatineau wrote: But imo the Middle East has a fair point. Russia's done some fucked up, oppressive shit over there. But America has done way more fucked up shit than Russia, I don't buy them using the "stop involving yourself in our affairs" argument when they have meddled the fuck out of many other country's affairs not to mention all the awful human rights violations within their own country over the years.
I'm fairly positive a majority of the world population outside the US would sign this after having given it some thought.
I see you switched the countries. You really think America has engaged in more domestic human rights violations than Russia (inc its years as the Soviet Union) has? c'monnnnnnn man that's just absurd.
OGLemon wrote:for the record, Russia was never at any point, socialistic or socialist. The main problem is people's conception of the nature of socialism.
agreed.
OGLemon wrote:Socialism cannot exist in one country. It's a global order, just as capitalism is a global order today.
eh, not too sure about this part. i think an isolated country can have almost an entirely socialist economy. especially if they don't rely much on foreign trade. maybe it wouldn't be a 'perfect' definition of socialism but certainly closer to that "perfect" socialist economy than a perfectly capitalistic one.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by OGLemon » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:33 pm

Imperialism in the 21st century is a different beast than the 20th century.

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by faultier » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:38 pm

DrGatineau wrote:america hasn't annexed any land since the 1950s
i guess this depends on how you define annex...
if the US were to "put cuba under its influence" (ie make cuba an ally?), that wouldn't be a bad thing per se. i think cuba would probably become modernized and largely benefit.
oh for sure it would benefit, just like Chili economically benefited when a CIA backed coup overthrew Allende to put Pinochet in power (check out his resumé if u dont kno him; it's impressive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet)
You really think America has engaged in more domestic human rights violations than Russia (inc its years as the Soviet Union) has?
mm domestic? maybe its disputable
abroad? clearly yes

man, i dont want to sound patronizing but you really need to read up on the history of your country

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by DrGatineau » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:41 pm

hubb wrote:And there's so many cues in the terms you use and the un-proven type of argumentation that you use, that I can't help but be annoyed by how american and almost brainwashed your understanding is. If you want to hear opinions outside of that, then I'm here. But you can't claim something as weak and vague as they are just worse and be taken seriously.
hubb wrote:didn't mean to sound that much like a dick but you can see from both posts how yours could be a veiwed as a little offensive/ un-informed..
Well, I can see how people really, really want to and enjoy believing this about americans, regardless of how informed they actually are.

I think you're misdirecting your frustration towards America in general or other Americans at me. I think you fail to see that I am largely on your side when it comes to the facts (except for things like "Russia has a better human rights record than America" or "America would annex Cuba if it could") and probably entirely on your side when it comes to the political/social/economic philosophy.


lol how every convo like this that in all irony started with a question asking to inform me about russia's mindset devolves into this over-dramatic "if you honestly think ____________ then you really need to read up on ___________." so predictable and :H:

also lol at how despite making my position clear over and over again you all think i'm an apologist for America's action in Chili :lol: go read my first post and laugh at all the false conclusions that were drawn.
Last edited by DrGatineau on Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by _ronzlo_ » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:44 pm

America will conquer Cuba now with spring break, plastic chotchkes from China, and "giving" consumers "choice" between 47 kinds of shampoo where only 1 or 2 will suffice.

This just in:
Sens. Lindsey Graham, R-SC, John McCain, R-Ariz., say President Obama's Cuba strategy 'is about the appeasement of autocratic dictators, thugs, and adversaries'
:?

That's rich.

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by ehbes » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:51 pm

oh boy this is gonna be long one, ok here it goes:
DrGatineau wrote:America's done some fucked up, oppressive shit over there. But Russia has done way more fucked up shit than America
Not even fucking close bud. I'm willing to bet that today along the United States violated 20 international laws just through its normal everyday military actions alone. And ya know what, America has said fuck you to international law, the powers that be have decided that we are above the world's jurisdiction.
OGLemon wrote:for the record, Russia was never at any point, socialistic or socialist. The main problem is people's conception of the nature of socialism. Socialism cannot exist in one country. It's a global order, just as capitalism is a global order today.
bang on. It also doesn't help when you're trying to form a socialist state and the majority of the world powers are trying to tear you down.
DrGatineau wrote:there definitely are tons of rednecks in the US that hate russia, but most of the liberal/educated crowd couldn't really care less about russia (aside from if they try to take countries or regions that clearly violate international law).
You're forgetting that we don't give a shit about international law.
DrGatineau wrote:people who "hate" communism (and I use quotations because it's ridiculous to hate communism) are just uneducated and indoctrinated idiots. but there are plenty of people in america that understand that there is nothing "evil" about communism and that a little bit of communism/socialism would probably be good for america.
bits and pieces of socialism is called liberalism, and its counterintuitive to leftism.
DrGatineau wrote:if the US were to "put cuba under its influence" (ie make cuba an ally?), that wouldn't be a bad thing per se. i think cuba would probably become modernized and largely benefit.

Cuba already has free education, a better healthcare system that the US, and sends its world renounced doctors to aid countries in places like south america and africa. They are modern and dont need some capitalist bully exploiting them for cigars and beaches.
DrGatineau wrote:I see you switched the countries. You really think America has engaged in more domestic human rights violations than Russia (inc its years as the Soviet Union) has? c'monnnnnnn man that's just absurd.
America sent its own citizens to concentration camps just for not being white. let that one sink in.
DrGatineau wrote:eh, not too sure about this part. i think an isolated country can have almost an entirely socialist economy. especially if they don't rely much on foreign trade. maybe it wouldn't be a 'perfect' definition of socialism but certainly closer to that "perfect" socialist economy than a perfectly capitalistic one.
The shift from slavery to feudalism was not a country by country shift, nor was the shift to from feudalism to capitalism, what make you think now it'll be different. Its near impossible to achieve a socialist state when the wealthiest countries on the planet are actively trying to tear you down.
OGLemon wrote:Imperialism in the 21st century is a different beast than the 20th century.
For more on this I suggest you take a look at the First Imperialism and the Second. quite interesting.
Last edited by ehbes on Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by OGLemon » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:53 pm

DrGatineau wrote:
OGLemon wrote:Socialism cannot exist in one country. It's a global order, just as capitalism is a global order today.
eh, not too sure about this part. i think an isolated country can have almost an entirely socialist economy. especially if they don't rely much on foreign trade. maybe it wouldn't be a 'perfect' definition of socialism but certainly closer to that "perfect" socialist economy than a perfectly capitalistic one.
I just wrote a long reply, but I accidentally closed the page when clicking on another tab.
Basically, I said that socialism and capitalism cannot coexist, for socialism, by nature, requires that capitalism be uprooted and destroyed.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/w ... in-com.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... /index.htm
Some works that explain the idea.

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by OGLemon » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:54 pm

_ronzlo_ wrote: Sens. Lindsey Graham
this guy is such a tnuc :u: :u: :u:

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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by ehbes » Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:55 pm

OGLemon wrote:
_ronzlo_ wrote: Sens. Lindsey Graham
this guy is such a tnuc :u: :u: :u:
whenever I hear him talk I get the sense that he was sent to a pray the gay away camp for the vast majority of his summer vacations
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Re: Does the US/Cuba Embargo get discussed?

Post by jrkhnds » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:08 pm

wow ehbs you're cool. next time write a bit slower so I don't need to delete 2/3rds of what I wrote to prevent repetition. :lol:
DrGatineau wrote:I see you switched the countries. You really think America has engaged in more domestic human rights violations than Russia (inc its years as the Soviet Union) has? c'monnnnnnn man that's just absurd.
why would that be absurd?
imagine you learn about the russian gov spying on you. but, you know, they've been really thorough. they read your text messages. they read your emails. they track your every move through your phone's geodata. they see you walking through the streets by accessing security cameras. they track your online history. in some cases, they even hacked your computer. they did the same to your neighbours, your girlfriend, maybe even had a wank to her nudes. or to yours. they did the same to your president. would you be angry?
now, we all know where this is headed, so let's cut it short. all of it clearly constitues a violation of the human right to privacy, doesn't it? so for the US alone, that'd make about 250 million cases, am I right? now, the US still knows the death penalty. how many people die each year this way?
I've made it easy for myself, but if you really want to dig deeper, I'm sure you'll find TONS more. your human rights get violated on a daily basis (like mine, of course) in order to further the interests of the (american) military-industrial complex, in order to satisfy the needs of Big Corp. et al.
DrGatineau wrote:there definitely are tons of rednecks in the US that hate russia, but most of the liberal/educated crowd couldn't really care less about russia (aside from if they try to take countries or regions that clearly violate international law). so i still think that asking why (some people in) russia hates america is a fair question. asking why some people in the US hate russia is also a fair question.

i think there's been plenty of bad press when america has done shitty things in the middle east or elsewhere, much of it coming from american media. you hear about the recent torture reports, for example?
since I have not compiled any scientific data, I tend to agree - there is bad press when the US has fucked up. however, I still feel like russia gets the stick a lot more often... but maybe you're right, I don't know for sure.
DrGatineau wrote: if the US were to "put cuba under its influence" (ie make cuba an ally?), that wouldn't be a bad thing per se. i think cuba would probably become modernized and largely benefit. america would probably get something out of it, seeing as we tend not to meddle unless we get something out of it, but that's not in itself bad for cuba.
benefit from what?
-> what ehbes said

that's the thing with us westeners, somehow everything new, modern is good. there needs to be growth. personally, I don't think so. fuck growth.
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