Soulseek

Off Topic (Everything besides dubstep)
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jackieboi
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Post by jackieboi » Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:51 pm

eventualdecline wrote:I find it quite funny the swing of the general consensus on file sharing. Five to ten years ago you'd find that the majority of internet users clued up on file sharing were pro, now today it's against. I think this stems from the brain washing of the MPAA/RIAA/Greedy underground producers/etc... I'd be interested to see how many producers clear 100% of their samples? Pay for 100% of their software? What about graphic designers paying for 100% of their source photography? 100% of their fonts? Their £1,500 copy of photoshop? That copy of XP/Vista that runs on their computer?

Contrast this with the fact that there have been competing reports that support just about every view on file sharing, pro and against. Why is this? Probably because no one really has a clue about the impact of filesharing. I just find it disturbing that so many people have changed their stance because big business has dictated how you're supposed to think.... but fuck it, it's all about scraping every last cent from society while you claim to be underground, right?
Also very good point. I'm quite liking not being the only little scally who loves getting shit for free
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umkhontowesizwe
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Post by umkhontowesizwe » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:04 pm

eventualdecline wrote:I'd be interested to see how many producers clear 100% of their samples? Pay for 100% of their software? What about graphic designers paying for 100% of their source photography? 100% of their fonts? Their £1,500 copy of photoshop? That copy of XP/Vista that runs on their computer?
that's different though, it's ok to 'steal' from big companies :roll:

would be interesting to see where the cut off point is for when file sharing becomes acceptable as opposed to being a crime against humanity

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Post by oddfellow » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:16 am

I know a lot of people who fileshare. They've grown up accustomed to getting music for free and turning that mentality around would be very difficult. In terms of dubstep I buy vinyl and get dubs and since I want to support the scene its changed my view of filesharing somewhat. Not everyone is going to have that experience though. And to be honest I do grab the occasional album in other genres if I'm curious about someone. I dont feel 100% good about it but I myself have grown up with that culture and wouldnt be into the music I'm into without it. Wigan's local music scene isnt very accommodating to different types of music. Its rock, metal and fucking donk!

It has to be noted that a lot of people wont buy dubstep but will go to lots of nights and show support. This especially seems true with a lot of students I have met.

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Post by surface_tension » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:38 am

@Eventual Decline

Yea man, we make an honest effort to clear our samples. For the owners of the label itself, Shiva and I, we pay for all our software and hardware. Right now, she's even having issues because yet another crash of her Harddrive has killed her last available use of Ableton and now she is without. WITHOUT. That doesn't mean she ran out and downloaded a pirated version. That means she refuses, even though she's bought it a few times now.

In all of our contracts we require the artists to clear any samples they have, if it's something they can't clear, I have a copyright lawyer on retainer for those things. Also, we have an ASCAP publisher a phone call away, or an email away, or an IM away for advice on the best LEGAL way to proceed. So you can speak in generalities about how this is a bunch of brainwashed by the RIAA/MPAA bullshit, but the truth is, until I ran a label and saw how 90% of my losses weren't due to my own negligence as a label owner--but sheer greed of the public... well let's just say it was eye opening.

We also grew up in a time when we didn't have the access that you have. We had to buy every tune we wanted, either on a mixtape or on a vinyl record. There was no other option. When CDJ's came out, I was THAT GUY who was the first one to bust on the fools playing CD's. When every new technology was coming out I scoffed. Why not just use the old technology that works?

WELL, I WAS WRONG.

I was wrong when I stole music, etc... I was wrong. I grew up, I evolved. Some things just are the way they are. I embrace the sharing of mixedsets, absolutely. I'll never be that guy who would sue you for an all Surface Tension mix or something. That's not me. BUT giving away the fruits of someone elses labor is not the one. Every software we use, and every piece of hardware we use is bought by us. That's just a damn fact. Also, it's in our contracts that the same is required of everyone we work with. They are free to lie to us, but if we ever find out we can/will drop them. This is not a game, it might not be the norm, etc.

We just couldn't legitimately rail against something and do the exact opposite in our private lives. We're not politicians. We don't want our music pirated. It will happen and we understand this. But just remember that we don't take the money people spend on our record/digital release and spend it on a mountain of cocaine like some people do. I have a kid on the way, bills to pay, etc. She works for a non-profit organization raising funds for under-privileged and stuff.

That doesn't make it cool for you to steal from some other label because they may or may not be in the same situation, but you are by far wrong when you lump all labels together and assume that they steal everything they have. You've obviously never gone out and bought a set of Studio monitors, CDJ's, 1210's, a new mixer, need needles, new records, etc... I've probably spent 30,000 USD in the last 8 or so years. Steal from someone else.
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eventualdecline
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Post by eventualdecline » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:38 am

Surface_Tension wrote:That doesn't make it cool for you to steal from some other label because they may or may not be in the same situation, but you are by far wrong when you lump all labels together and assume that they steal everything they have. You've obviously never gone out and bought a set of Studio monitors, CDJ's, 1210's, a new mixer, need needles, new records, etc... I've probably spent 30,000 USD in the last 8 or so years. Steal from someone else.
You talk of generalities and assumptions yet you assume that I throw stones from a glass house. You're not the only one that has invested a fair amount of money in their studio, I believe I'm at about $15,000, probably closer to $20,000 having spent a load of money shipping it all across the Atlantic.

Regardless, despite your personal efforts to maintain a business which has reduced it's exposure to being sued for using illegal software/samples I would say you're in the minority of producers/labels. I would also speculate on your reasons for doing so but I don't know you personally just like you don't know me so if you want to argue a point then talk about yourself or keep it third person yeah?

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Post by djshiva » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:10 am

i would like to throw a new wrench in the works by talking about how i popped onto slsk years ago because a bunch of techno dudes i knew hung out in the techno chat there.

i shared some tunes of my own, and within a few weeks, every time i popped into the techno chat, someone new had heard it.

one person who heard it worked with a label called heavy industries. i ended up with my first (digital) techno release on a compilation with many much more well known techno producers because of slsk.

so my point is, there ARE other reasons for using it. it worked well for me as a promotional tool. also, my friends and i shared our own samples and collaborated on tunes for years.

just something to think about.
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Post by surface_tension » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:18 am

Eventual: you spending money on your gear doesn't excuse you pirating music, and in particular our music. I don't like the idea that you would pirate anyone's music. Everybody who wants to should be able to make an attempt to make a living off of their music.

For some people, eeking out a living, playing in small clubs and touring would be a dream come true. Just because you don't think they have the right to give that a shot and you feel entitled to steal the fruits of their labor doesn't mean you have the right to do it.

You write a book, I copy that book and then distribute the words you spent a year writing. Because of that, you must get a job and you can no longer write. After all, everyone has the right to your personal thoughts and ideas. You also don't have the right to put those ideas in between the cover of your choice, with a title and your name in the font of your choice. They are your original thoughts, but they belong to all of us... right?

Don't waste your time. I spoke directly at you because of what you previously said. I don't live in a glass house and I don't throw stones. When my opinion on something changes, I admit I was wrong, or that I have changed my opinion and evolved. I used to feel entitled as well--I was wrong. Once I saw how I was hurting people I quit. Scan my HD, and you will find that aside from dubplates given to me, there are only tunes I own. Fact. And yea, I have a right to be angry when someone is pirating music.

Shiva makes a point... she gave HER stuff away. She didn't give someone elses stuff away. In certain cases, it's good to fileshare. Also, you can use AIM for that. Or this forum, or any of the other forums.
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Post by badger » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:31 am

it's like most things - in itself soulseek isn't a bad thing; it's how people use it that can turn it from a useful tool into something more negative and damaging. and at the end of the day it's up to the individual user to regulate how they use it. sharing tunes that you have a right to share and mixes etc is a great way to spread new music for people that might not know about various internet forums and so on, but pirating releases, whilst spreading music to new ears also risks putting the label (or even the producer) out of business

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Post by bassbeyondreason » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:32 am

I'd usually be the first to defend filesharing, but when it comes to dubstep, there are so many releases that are actually available to buy, or on mixes, it doesn't even seem neccessary. I mean, if we're talking private press acid rock or obscure world musics(what I mostly download), I'll defend it, but with the exception of well out of print releases, downloading dubstep just seems cheeky.

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Post by eventualdecline » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:11 pm

Surface_Tension wrote:Eventual: you spending money on your gear doesn't excuse you pirating music, and in particular our music.
I'm not particularly interested in having a debate or even an argument with someone who pulls things from out of thin air. Your statement that I have pirated your music is utterly and completely false. Not only is it false but up until your post in this thread I've never even heard of you or your label. If you want to apologise to me then go ahead but as far as discussions go I've no interest in conversing with you.

If you're statement was to be read in general terms where your definition of the word "you" means people in general then I refer you to my second posting.

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Post by felixgash » Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:13 pm

Not gonna say much on the matter of legal/illegal downloading, but it does make me go " :? :| " when relative nobodies (this is not directed at anybody in particular, I don't "keep up" with the scene at all and if you know me you'll know I'm on DSF for the banter, just a general opinion.) insist that you buy their music. Why should I? If I'm playing your song on the radio or out in clubs, quite frankly I'm doing you a favour. (Of course, it's a mutual thing: DJ gets new music too, after all.)

Especially in smaller scenes, such as Dubstep, that don't have the larger popular appeal that other kinds of music. People need to decide whether they're doing it for the love or for the money. Unfortunately if you think it can be both, especially when nobody outside this little virtual world of ours on DSF knows who you are, then you're certainly fooling yourself. Help build the scene, the more tunes out there then the more interest from people who might not be able to go out and buy one of your limited 500 run 12s.. right?

Do yourself the favour and stop dreaming about the $23 you might make off a few mp3 sales, and start to think about getting your name out there/building a rep.

It's like them despicable hoodrats on Oxford Street, standing in groups of 3/4/5 looking ghetto fabulous, trying to force anybody they think might be half-interested to buy their new "album" for (usually) £5.

Are you mad mate? You want me to give you £5 for your two-bob album you spend a few hours on in your bedroom/community project studio? Are you taking the piss? I wouldn't take it if it was free (it's that bad) and you're trying to SELL it??

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surface_tension
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Post by surface_tension » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:16 pm

Nobody is insisting you should buy our music, we're saying that we insist you don't steal it. There's a big difference there really. Don't steal from us. The fact that a few, or even most producers are pirating their software doesn't give license for morons to go around stealing produced works on the basis that some or most people don't license their samples.

We license them and other people do license them. It might not be the norm, but it does happen. We do that because we are legitimate. Because if someday, on the off chance someone wanted to license one of the tunes on our label for a movie or something like that, we won't have to pay 95% of that, if not all of it, plus damages, to some moron who likely samples their tunes themselves. It's too easy to clear samples to not do it. If you don't or you can't afford to do so, ask yourself if that tune is good enough without stealing the fruit of someone elses labor.

Like I said, I can't change it all, but to the extent that we expect people to not fuck us, we don't fuck other people. That means we give away the music that we want to give away, and the rest of it we sell. If you like it because you heard it in a mix, by all means buy it. Ask the producer for a copy, ask me or Shiva for a copy. If you ask nicely, you never know man you just might get it. If you downloaded our shit illegally, I tell you right now FUCK YOU. We don't want your support. We don't want your money. We don't want you to promote us. We don't want anything but your immediate hard drive failure. At least speaking for myself. This isn't a charity.

Actually, that isn't entirely true... the proceeds from most of our profits(which those who think they are helping us by handing out our tune, which gets handed out, which gets handed out... it's not just you to your mate, it's you to thousands of people. Think about how fast shit gets around the internet!) go to charities. We donate to animal shelters, we donate to the hungry, we donate to non-governmental organizations. We also do hand out tunes to those who ask nicely when we can, like once something has been out for a while, not before that. So it's a lot more personal for us when people steal. They aren't just taking it from us. And how the fuck is someone supposed to own a legitimate copy of anything in this economy when you steal from them? $23 dollars from Digital Sales... that the artist has every right to see.

There are a few people who actually do make a living off of music within this scene. And they aren't the only ones who have a right to aspire to that level. Nobody is asking you to buy anything. We are just asking that you don't steal it. Wanna listen, go to youtube and listen... 90% of the decent releases end up on there in some capacity for you to hear. If you have a problem with that, then buy the release.
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Post by concept_ » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:01 am

illegal downloading of music is an unspeakable hobby on his forum - like masturbating - everyone does it, nobody admits it when challenged

I'm a fan of both. In moderation.

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Post by gwa » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:10 am

concept_ wrote:illegal downloading of music is an unspeakable hobby on his forum - like masturbating - everyone does it, nobody admits it when challenged

I'm a fan of both. In moderation.
What, masturbation?
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