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Phasing audio

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Postby zerbaman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:33 am

I know that this only works efficiently if the files you're using were mastered together. But my question is why it only works this way?
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Postby 3za » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:40 am

Why what works???
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Postby zerbaman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:44 am

Why you can't take any copy of the original instrumental and phase the audio to the vocal version.
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Postby Sine69 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:48 am

Are you talking about trying to remove everything except for the vocals in a song?
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Postby 3za » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:00 am

Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal) ;-)
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Sure_Fire wrote:By the way does anyone have the stems to make it bun dem? Missed the beatport comp and would very much like the ego booster of saying I remixed Skrillex.
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Postby Toric » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:01 am

I've only ever phased audio to remove vocals to either sing to, or get better samples.

From what I understand, it's because the song is mastered in stereo, and the vocals are generally in the center, where as the rest of the audio is panned. When you phase invert a track and lay it on top of itself, it will cancel out anything in the middle, in turn, cutting everything that is panned center.

I hope this helps a bit!

-T
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Postby Toric » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:02 am

3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal) ;-)



Values? This is pretty intriguing to me. Care to elaborate? :)

-T
Last edited by Toric on Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby efence » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:08 am

picture an instumental and the same track with vocal(doesnt really matter if its been stereo mixed or not)
if the instrumaental with the vocal on top were mastered/compressed/anything then when you invert the insrumental your left with the vocal and all the compression efx that were on the master
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Postby zerbaman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:14 am

What I want is to end with an acapella of the track, using the instrumental and the full version to phase eachother out.

3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal)

Yeah, but why is it that on some files it doesn't work out this way? Nothing changes, they just play as normal
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Postby efence » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:25 am

zerbaman wrote:What I want is to end with an acapella of the track, using the instrumental and the full version to phase eachother out.

3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal)

Yeah, but why is it that on some files it doesn't work out this way? Nothing changes, they just play as normal


the invert needs to line up perfect bit to bit
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Postby Toric » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:41 am

efence wrote:picture an instumental and the same track with vocal(doesnt really matter if its been stereo mixed or not)
if the instrumaental with the vocal on top were mastered/compressed/anything then when you invert the insrumental your left with the vocal and all the compression efx that were on the master



This makes perfect sense.

Hmm, I guess I'm talking about something different.

So you have to have an instrumental and the track with vocals to be able to do it?

Edit: Figured out what I was missing from this thread. Didn't read something the right way. :)

efence wrote:
zerbaman wrote:What I want is to end with an acapella of the track, using the instrumental and the full version to phase eachother out.

3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal)

Yeah, but why is it that on some files it doesn't work out this way? Nothing changes, they just play as normal


the invert needs to line up perfect bit to bit


Okay I understand now. Awesome! Thanks!

-T
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Postby 3za » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:19 am

Toric wrote:
3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal) ;-)



Values? This is pretty intriguing to me. Care to elaborate? :)

A waveform has a positive, or negative Value at any point. If you took a sinewave, and picked a point above the zero-crossing it will have a positive value, vise versa.

If you was to make all the positive points negative points, vise versa. When you sum them together, they would cancel out.
E.g. 1 + -1 + = 0

If there was a difference, you would be left what what the difference.
E.g. 2 + -1 = 1

That 1 you got is part of the vocal :)
Last edited by 3za on Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zerbaman » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:34 am

efence wrote:
zerbaman wrote:What I want is to end with an acapella of the track, using the instrumental and the full version to phase eachother out.

3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal)

Yeah, but why is it that on some files it doesn't work out this way? Nothing changes, they just play as normal


the invert needs to line up perfect bit to bit

Self explanatory isn't it?
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Postby Toric » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:41 am

3za wrote:
Toric wrote:
3za wrote:Because all the values are the same apart from the vocal, so when you invert one of them it now has the opposite values of the instrumental track. So when you sum them together, you are left with the difference (the vocal) ;-)



Values? This is pretty intriguing to me. Care to elaborate? :)

A waveform has a positive, or negative Value at any point. If you took a sinewave, and picked a point above the zero-crossing it will have a positive value, vise versa.

If you was to make all you the positive points negative points, vise versa. When you sum them together, they would cancel out.
E.g. 1 + -1 + = 0

If there was a difference, you would be left what what the difference.
E.g. 2 + -1 = 1

That 1 you got is part of the vocal :)

Stuff Eric knows, most likely. Thanks for the explanation! Why do vocals have a greater value? Just curious and I think may be relevant to the thread?

Edit: is it because you are using an instrumental and then an instrumental + vocal track and that's what makes the vocal track have a higher number? Or does it just cancel everything out but the vocals?

-T
Last edited by Toric on Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 3za » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:46 am

Toric wrote:Why do vocals have a greater value? Just curious and I think may be relevant to the thread?

That was just in my example, they will have negative values too.

I was just talking about the value of a waveform at just one point, in your audio file their are billions, depending on your sample rate, and lengtth of the file.
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Postby Toric » Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:20 am

3za wrote:
Toric wrote:Why do vocals have a greater value? Just curious and I think may be relevant to the thread?

That was just in my example, they will have negative values too.

I was just talking about the value of a waveform at just one point, in your audio file their are billions, depending on your sample rate, and lengtth of the file.



Yea. I think I've gotcha. It's really hard to communicate this stuff the way you want to via text.

Which is why I have music theory textbooks.

Thanks!

Also, thanks Zerbaman, for lending me your thread for a second! :)

-T
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Postby Depone » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:56 am

Forget the vocals supposed number, that doesnt make sense. Irs just straight up phase inversion. Ty it yourself with 2 copies of the same audio. Put them both in your daw, invert one and you are left with silence. If one had a vocal or another element, it would stay as theres nothing to 'counter phase' it, and your left with just that part
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Postby 3za » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:35 pm

Depone wrote:Forget the vocals supposed number, that doesnt make sense.

I am sure everything I posted in this thread makes sense.
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Postby -[2]DAY_- » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:52 pm

Toric wrote: Why do vocals have a greater value?

:lol: :lol: :cornlol: :lol: :lol:

naw, its not literally an arithmetic problem.. if you invert phase of the instrumental and layer with the full track, only the instrumental part of the waveform will cancel out, leaving the vocal left behind by itself (hopefully).


lol i'm sure plenty people have tried explaining it. Doesn't even work too well usually, afaik
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Postby Toric » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:28 am

-[2]DAY_- wrote:
Toric wrote: Why do vocals have a greater value?

:lol: :lol: :cornlol: :lol: :lol:

naw, its not literally an arithmetic problem.. if you invert phase of the instrumental and layer with the full track, only the instrumental part of the waveform will cancel out, leaving the vocal left behind by itself (hopefully).


lol i'm sure plenty people have tried explaining it. Doesn't even work too well usually, afaik


Yea! I know. I was a bit blitzed out of my mind when I was on here. I was actually looking for some info and found this thread (completely irrelivant) and I confused myself by taking things literally and not having a better DAW & Electronic music vocabulary.

:P
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