sub never sounds fat or warm enough

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wayfarer__
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sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by wayfarer__ » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:18 am

yo,

i seem to have hit a pretty frustrating wall with my production levels - I really can never seem to be able to get my sub to sit high enough in the mix and it be comfortable with the rest of the tune. no one ever complains about there being no sub in my tunes, it is definitely there - i just think my tunes just sound a bit lifeless, muddy and lacking in clarity in the low end.

ill use my latest bit on soundcloud as an example
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i don't make my subs very unusually. massive - low pass sine/square, teeny bit of classic tube, eq - roll off 20hz on the bottom and around 90 hz depending on where the kicks hitting, bit of compression and some limiting just to raise the volume and assign an lfo to the oscillator volume in the vst for movement.

am i doing something wrong? in the tune i posted, could my low benefit from and kind of side chaining or further compression? if so what kind? is there anything that my tuna might benefit from in general?

feeling like this right now :u: , really frustrating to be struggling to progress. any advice would be wicked please.

bless up, thanks

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by fragments » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:42 am

What are people listening to your tunes on? Because if you are rolling off at around 90 A LOT of listen devices aren't going to pick up much of that range below 90. You've got to, got to, got to EQ everything below 150 hz out of every sound that doesn't need the space. Even things like high hats will often have a bit of energy down that far. Side chaining is fine...but I always make sure absolutely nothing else is hitting in the sweet spot of the sub. Not even the kick. Or alternatively I'll let the kick be the sub.

Personally, I don't think anything booms like a SINGLE sine in mono. Drop the square wave?

Finally, are you putting the sub in mono? Makes a huge difference.

You might also try something like Voxengo's Low Freq. Punch...used in moderation (forget the presets) a VST like this can help you shape your bass sounds.
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wayfarer__
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by wayfarer__ » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:58 am

yep, i make a big thing about kicks, sub and bottom of my snare being mono, i send my snare to a a high passed stereo bus where it gets its reverb treatments.
yeah i only use one oscillator, no formula buts its normally a sine or square or somewhere inbetween. perhaps might just be down to more rigorous equing overall... ill check out that wee vst you mentioned though. thanks.

i'm not really a fan of side-chaining, i think it makes it sound like the mix is sucking in and out and pulling itself around too much... but that might just be not knowing how to use it in moderation? i'm not really sure if people really use it in dubstep... particularly in the darker, sparse stuff.

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by travis_baker » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:04 am

take this with a pinch of salt. i hi pass a single sine about 40 and low pass like 60, keep your sub as thin as possible. make a send, slight distortion i mean not much at all then high pass like 150 and keep it pretty quiet. bout -20 db. and compress if you need to. your sub needs to have volume not maximum amount of space in the mix. theres a breakage q&a were he talks about geting the sub "looking as thin as possible" on the anilyser. its on DOA, theres a macc q&a on there aswell. plenty of info on it.

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by fragments » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:09 am

@TB: I'm going to give that a shot. Sounds interesting and like it might work nicely.

@: When I use side chaining, I generally use to get some kind of pumping/ducking effect. If you are making sparser tunes, you shouldn't need to sidechain as much...the fewer elements to EQ and mix, it should be easier in some regards to get things to fit together.
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by travis_baker » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:25 am

fragments wrote:@TB: I'm going to give that a shot. Sounds interesting and like it might work nicely.

@: When I use side chaining, I generally use to get some kind of pumping/ducking effect. If you are making sparser tunes, you shouldn't need to sidechain as much...the fewer elements to EQ and mix, it should be easier in some regards to get things to fit together.
man side chaining is an affect, used in house alot for the subs. you shouldnt be using side chaining at all unless you want that effect.

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by Sexual_Chocolate » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:33 am

travis baker wrote:
fragments wrote:@TB: I'm going to give that a shot. Sounds interesting and like it might work nicely.

@: When I use side chaining, I generally use to get some kind of pumping/ducking effect. If you are making sparser tunes, you shouldn't need to sidechain as much...the fewer elements to EQ and mix, it should be easier in some regards to get things to fit together.
man side chaining is an affect, used in house alot for the subs. you shouldnt be using side chaining at all unless you want that effect.
half true, half wrong.

it depends what frequencies your sub & kick are hitting

if your cutting them at similair freqs then sidechaining is an effective way of un-muddying the bottom end.
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by fragments » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:45 am

*shrug* I've often seen discussions where people touted subtle-ish side chaining as a way to help kick/sub stay out of each others way. You don't have to crank everything so that the ducking/pumping is really obvious. But thanks for setting me straight TB.
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by travis_baker » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:54 am

ok my bad, iv never tryd it...ignorance is bliss ay

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by chaotix » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:02 am

yeah i always use a tad of side chaining just to clean the mix up a bit, you can barely hear the pumping if you make it subtle enough.

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by fragments » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:07 am

@Travis: My sarcasm was undue man, no worries.
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by wayfarer__ » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:22 am

thanks for your input guys, especially at this weird hour of the night. will give the sidechaining ting a go when i can crank my monitors up tomorrow :)
was just wondering if i was missing something fundamental. think i might save up to get a lesson from seven ahaha

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by __________ » Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:37 am

What I do is get the sub sounding fat, then build the rest of the tune around it.
Sine with a little bit of saturation and limiting at -10dB ish sounds good to me - then I get the rest of the tune sounding 'correct' in relation to that sub.

Side chaining is a different kettle of fish entirely. I generally use it to make my kick punch through my sub. If your sub isn't sounding right to begin with then side-chaining will do nothing for it!

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by DrSpliff » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:44 am

Try simple things like adjusting your adsr envelopes, or simply turn your sub a bit up and your kick a bit down . Otherwise when making your sub, make both osc on a 2 osc synth a sine wave, layer one either an octave higher, or one lower. This is an effective way in making a very powerful sub bass.

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by Sonika » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:11 am

wayfarer__ wrote:compression? if so what kind? is there anything that my tuna might benefit from in general?
What an odd statement. I'm pretty sure that your tuna don't care how you process your bass.


...haha but in all seriousness, I don't like to sidechain for mixing purposes, imo it makes the track feel like it's pulsing/convulsing the entire time, which is great when I want that effect, but a lot of times I don't.

So yeah I mainly use sidechaining for the pulsing/pumping effect that is used a lot in house.
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by Electric_Head » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:44 am

Sonika wrote:
wayfarer__ wrote:compression? if so what kind? is there anything that my tuna might benefit from in general?
What an odd statement. I'm pretty sure that your tuna don't care how you process your bass.


...haha but in all seriousness, I don't like to sidechain for mixing purposes, imo it makes the track feel like it's pulsing/convulsing the entire time, which is great when I want that effect, but a lot of times I don't.

So yeah I mainly use sidechaining for the pulsing/pumping effect that is used a lot in house.
side chaining doesn`t have to pump.
It can duck just as effectively without creating the pumping
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by Sonika » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:21 am

It still creates a slightly pumping feel
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by Electric_Head » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:24 am

Sonika wrote:It still creates a slightly pumping feel
nope

If you use it correctly, it will just sound like a thick kick bass.
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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by DrSpliff » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:28 am

Electric_Head is right, Sonika. Set it up correctly and it won't pump.

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Re: sub never sounds fat or warm enough

Post by daeMTHAFKNkim » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:56 am

I wouldn't Lowpass a pure sine wave sub-bass at all. I leave it how it is to keep the fullness.
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