Dungeon Drums Processing

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Hashkey
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Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Hashkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:28 pm

I just find that using only one reverb send doesn't give enough textures.
I prefer using 2 room reverbs one very short and one a bit longer for the single hits to make em fit in the same room.
Then I use another send for the whole kit maybe a plate or a hall.
Another flavour of plate just for the snare.

The thing I notice is that often is not enough, the drums in mixes I hear from youngsta have some kind fullness and overheads that I can't seem to achieve.

How do you process em?

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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by fragments » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:39 pm

Maybe this is too obvious, but I didn't know it for a long time. Do you have your reverbs set to highest quality when you go to bounce your tune? I didn't realize reverb VSTs had quality settings for like...the first three years of producing.

I find filtering before the reverb and EQ after can help get the sound your after. I feel like things get so muddy, so quick using tons of reverbs everywhere. Are you sure what you are after texture-wise has anything to do with reverb?
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Brothulhu » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:41 pm

I like automating the reverb length on snares
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Hashkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:57 pm

Hey Frag! I'm using for the room reverbs the "lexicon Hall" set to small spaces, I've read about it has a very nice algorithm.
For the plates I usually use the emt 140 for the snare and for the whole kit sometimes the 250.
I Usually filter with a high pass around 300hz and low pass around 6-8 khz.
And I usually filter post reverb, never tried filtering pre...production wise what should be the difference?

The thing I always notice in almost all high end dungeon tracks is a "fake" overheads effect, they sound so real.

oh and Bro, Yes I usually Automate the reverb on some hits to have a bigger tail or different feel yes.

cool anyway to get some new ways of doing it.

I saw the kryptic minds MC and they use one reverb on the whole kit and I just can't believe it's like that.

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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by titchbit » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:07 pm

I could be totally wrong but from what I understand about production, there's no point of EQ'ing before and after reverb (on only the wet signal - if you're eq'ing the wet and dry signals separately, that's a whole nother issue and it's not what I'm talking about here). reverb doesn't add any new sound, it just modifies it, so it's not like you're all of a sudden going to get new high (or low) frequencies after running a snare through reverb.

in other words, dropping the same EQ either before or after the reverb should give you the same result. there's no need for using two EQ's.

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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by fragments » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:24 pm

^Yea, I could be totally wrong about that...if a frequency is going into a reverb, it's not going out, makes sense.
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Hashkey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:37 pm

I'll try to post a drum loop later :)

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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by SunkLo » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:40 pm

I think, depending on the reverb design, that some low frequency content can be added. A lot of algorithmic reverbs are built from cascading delays. If those delays are short enough to extend into the audible spectrum you'd get some rumble. I usually highpass afterwards anyway so it's not really an issue.

I could see the point of pre-eq for a less flexible reverb. For instance to boost some high end to counteract the verb's dampening. Most reverbs will let you adjust the dampening factor though, so that wouldn't be required. I'm sure there's some esoteric situation that would call for some pre-eq though.
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by fragments » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:43 pm

SunkLo wrote:I think, depending on the reverb design, that some low frequency content can be added. A lot of algorithmic reverbs are built from cascading delays. If those delays are short enough to extend into the audible spectrum you'd get some rumble. I usually highpass afterwards anyway so it's not really an issue.

I could see the point of pre-eq for a less flexible reverb. For instance to boost some high end to counteract the verb's dampening. Most reverbs will let you adjust the dampening factor though, so that wouldn't be required. I'm sure there's some esoteric situation that would call for some pre-eq though.
So it's preferable to filter after the reverb to highpass the lows out rather than before? Was doing it the other way around...stopping the lows from getting in the first place.
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by SunkLo » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:45 pm

Yeah I usually go after, that way I can be sure nothing's getting through the filter.
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by fragments » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:48 pm

^That's a good point. I'm going to switch things about. (sorry for thread highjack).
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by test_recordings » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:08 am

You could add a delay/echo before the reverb, instead of a second reverb
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by subfect » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:11 pm

Dungeon isn't about reverb - that's your first problem. If you don't believe me, listen to tunes that aren't completely atmospheric. That said, there's obviously a lot of reverb automation going on in tracks. PS - I think you'er over-doing your 'verb.

I use 2 - max. 1 short, 1 long, usually a plate reverb for the short one and then usually like a hall emulation or something for the long one (provides nice warm textures).

Additionally, eq is super important. Dungeon drums are super crunchy, like cornflakes - meaning eq.etc. that applies to subgenres like brostep, doesn't really work in a dungeon aspect. Crunch comes from the 1-1.5khz range (imho), but really you gotta find what works. Layering rimshots and snares can be quite nice, and even thinks like people stepping on leaves.
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by fragments » Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:31 pm

subfect wrote:Dungeon isn't about reverb - that's your first problem. If you don't believe me, listen to tunes that aren't completely atmospheric. That said, there's obviously a lot of reverb automation going on in tracks. PS - I think you'er over-doing your 'verb.

I use 2 - max. 1 short, 1 long, usually a plate reverb for the short one and then usually like a hall emulation or something for the long one (provides nice warm textures).

Additionally, eq is super important. Dungeon drums are super crunchy, like cornflakes - meaning eq.etc. that applies to subgenres like brostep, doesn't really work in a dungeon aspect. Crunch comes from the 1-1.5khz range (imho), but really you gotta find what works. Layering rimshots and snares can be quite nice, and even thinks like people stepping on leaves.
Riffing off this, just record your shelf some natural textures (breaking sticks, crunching leaves, corn flakes, paper, whatever!) and layer that into the drums. I thought that sounded like a lot of reverb too. If I do a third I might do one for special/occasional percussion hit or maybe the snare. Or maybe during sound design. But as far as mixing the track and all, I usually stick to the long/short.

I like a combo of vinyl samples, drum machine sounds, and found sounds in something like a dungeon tune. It's way easier to get that awesome/unique sounding crunchiness when you us sounds that already have that quality instead of struggling to impart that quality to things that don't have it already.

OP, not a comment aimed directly at you, but it seems like people always want to do shit the hard way. Since I started recording more of my own samples from a variety of sources, I don't think I've used any of the typical processing methods for crunchy drums. The bitcrusher and distortion VSTs are collecting some serious dust.
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Sparxy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:24 pm

I'm assuming you're talking about snares... anyway its all about picking the right layers, if you don't have the right samples to begin with then no amount of processing is going to make them sound right. I typically go for 3 samples if i'm making a nice big snare - one with lots of punch at around 200hz, a clap, and a "white noise" snare. If it's still lacking impact then I might stick a rimshot in there too. A lot of producers don't put reverb on their snare at all... but If i'm using a reverb I will usually only put it on one of the softer layers, like the clap or the white noise. That way, you keep the impact but you still get a nice tail. After that they are bussed - on the buss they are compressed then EQ'd. EQing really depends on what your layers are sounding like, but you'll often find the "impact" is at 200hz so I usually boost there. You'll also want to highpass, you don't want your snare dipping into the bass region. The 'crunch' is coming from the clap and the white noise and is usually sufficient, but sometimes it can benefit from a boost somewhere between 1-2k.

With the kick, its just one sample, for me it's about shopping through all of my kick samples until I find one that sounds perfect for the tune i'm making/want to make. If i'm feeling brave sometimes I will synthesize one. But the idea of spending time finding the perfect sounding kick is so that it needs minimal processing to sound good / fit in your tune. Once it's in, just a bit of compression and some EQing is all it needs. EQ is fairly simple, usually just highpass it at about 60hz so it doesn't interfere with the sub too much.

After i've got all of that sounding nice, i'll use a single send where I send every single one of my drums (kick, snare, hats and percs). It's running NY style in tandem with the existing drum channels - its set to a low volume and all it has on it is a reverb. When you listen to it in context with the whole tune, it's really subtle but it just kinda pushed them to the front of the mix, and it makes them sound cohesive, like they're part of the same kit - which is what you want. I learned this from a Kryptic Minds tutorial and it certainly helps.

So yeah to answer your question... the textures of your drums mainly come from the samples you hand-pick, not from the processing although the amount of reverb and compression you apply can change the timbre.

Lastly... as a general rule the EQ is always last in the processing chain. Effects like reverb, distortion, compression will add in harmonics that you don't want, so there's really no point applying an EQ until the end, where any bad harmonics will be removed anyway.

Hope this helps

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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by syrup » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:42 pm

I don't agree with the EQ bit, i tend to eq the sound before sending it into verbs/delay or i use the EQ in those plugins. If i don't want some frequencies in a certain sound it seems logical to me to remove them before sending them to that kind of FX.

Edit: however, it's no set rule
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by titchbit » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:09 pm

yeah sometimes if I've got a real long chain I've used more than one EQ anyway. but I don't think it matters whether you EQ before, during (if the reverb supports that) or after. in my opinion and experience, it's all the same end result.

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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by SloppySeconds » Fri Aug 09, 2013 6:13 pm

lol over thinking ITT, i know some of the guys Youngsta's tunes play and i know some of them do FUCK ALL except pick the right samples and layer them properly, maybe a bit of eq.. stop overthinking and just trust ur ears
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Sparxy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:49 pm

SloppySeconds wrote:lol over thinking ITT, i know some of the guys Youngsta's tunes play and i know some of them do FUCK ALL except pick the right samples and layer them properly, maybe a bit of eq.. stop overthinking and just trust ur ears
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Re: Dungeon Drums Processing

Post by Hircine » Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:28 am

Sparxy pretty much nailed it. Just make sure to layer your high frequency elements as well. Have one hi hat going on straight and crank the aux knob on that to get the reverb shimmer, layer a more dynamic line for the groove and high pass it, add a stronger hat hit to get that on tempo feeling and then just keep adding elements. If you want a cymbal to be more present, less reverb and more mids. Use those more proeminent hits to get the swing going.
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