Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis works?

hardware, software, tips and tricks
Forum rules
By using this "Production" sub-forum, you acknowledge that you have read, understood and agreed with our terms of use for this site. Click HERE to read them. If you do not agree to our terms of use, you must exit this site immediately. We do not accept any responsibility for the content, submissions, information or links contained herein. Users posting content here, do so completely at their own risk.

Quick Link to Feedback Forum
Locked
Add9
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:39 am

Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis works?

Post by Add9 » Thu Jul 03, 2014 4:20 pm

So Propellerhead apparently invented the synthesis technique as a kind of hybrid between wavetable and granular synthesis specifically for Malstrom... and I know of no other synths that use this method.

But like... how does it work? Is it like some big secret or something? I can't find a single academic paper explaining the technology, whereas for any other synthesis technique there are tons of references. I'm getting into signal processing nowadays and I kind of want to experiment with the grantable idea, but according to Propellerhead a lot of it has to do with the "pre-processing" by an "extremely academic and complex method." And then they don't describe the method or provide any links :(

Anyway I'm probably going to fuck around with the idea anyway but I was just wondering if anyone had any idea how it might work (or where you could look to research how it works). Obviously Malstrom is a beastly synth so if you could create your own grain tables... the world would pretty much be your oyster.
WolfCryOfficial wrote:Have fun on your musical campaign to hell.

User avatar
NinjaEdit
Posts: 1603
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:16 am
Location: Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by NinjaEdit » Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:35 am

Did you try the manual?

Add9
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:39 am

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by Add9 » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:18 am

just looked at it, they actually do give a better explanation in the manual so it was helpful, thanks! they're still a bit coy about the pre-processing but I guess I can't expect them to spill every single bean
WolfCryOfficial wrote:Have fun on your musical campaign to hell.

User avatar
Samuel_L_Damnson
Posts: 3485
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:53 pm
Location: YORKSHIRE!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by Samuel_L_Damnson » Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:17 am

Its the same as granular but it only allows the use of preset sounds (wave forms) not ur own sample
Soundcloud
Collaborative project with kai li:
http://soundcloud.com/genrli

User avatar
Crimsonghost
Posts: 1051
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 6:59 am
Location: Belly of the beastmode

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by Crimsonghost » Fri Jul 04, 2014 5:09 pm

If I'm not mistaken, Hamburgs Nuklear is similar in design. I think they call it something different though. I do however remember they had a pretty in depth manual so that might e worth taking a look at.

Or I could just be talking out my ass.

Who cares. I'm getting drunk.
This space for rent.

Soundcloud

Soundcloud

User avatar
Simulant
Posts: 256
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:36 pm

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by Simulant » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:47 am

It's just marketing nonsense, designed to sell synths. I've seen tons of synths claim to have invented new types of synthesis, but usually they're just using an old form with a few tweaks.

Here are a few:

Tone2 Rayblaster - impulse modelling synthesis. What the hell? Google the phrase and you just get Tone2 results.

Hamburg Audio Nuklear - Pulse train synthesis. Your guess is as good as mine. But it has 4 pulsar train oscillators. I'm not sure if it has deflector shields though.

Tone2 - Nemesis - NeoFM synthesis. An FM synth, with NeoFM. Sounds pretty cool, but sounds pretty average.

Tone2 - Gladiator 2 - HCM synthesis. Yep, another Tone2 one, this time with HCM™. I can't even be bothered to look into what this does, I think these guys just make up names for fun.

Sonic Lab Cosmosf - Advanced stochastic synthesizer. Not a clue.

There's probably tons I've missed, but you get the idea. The main groups of synthesis are subtractive, additive, FM/PM, granular, spectral and physical modelling. Most synths are a variation on these. If there's any other types then I'd like to hear about them.
Image

User avatar
NinjaEdit
Posts: 1603
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:16 am
Location: Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by NinjaEdit » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:54 am

AM falls into the FM/PM group.

Stochastic synthesis would have something to do with statistics.

Add9
Posts: 310
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:39 am

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by Add9 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:48 am

Haha, NeoFM synthesis! Or, "regular FM synthesis, but we get to give it a different name because sometimes people say FM when they really mean PM"

Seriously this is how they describe it in the manual:

NeoFM:
"Our exclusive and new approach to FM synthesis. The modulator oscillator 'M' changes the frequency of the carrier oscillator 'C'. Special 90dB 0-phase filters damp the oscillators before FM is applied, providing 2 additional dimensions of sound manipulation."

I guess I'm going to go ahead and trademark NeoAdditive synthesis then, where you add a bunch of sine waves together.
WolfCryOfficial wrote:Have fun on your musical campaign to hell.

User avatar
Dub_Fiend
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 4:00 pm
Location: Nottingham, UK
Contact:

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by Dub_Fiend » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:16 am

So, putting a couple of filters before the oscillators means they can "trademark" a "new" version of FM synthesis? So so silly.
cloak and dagger wrote:number of posts on dsf = directly proportional to importance in the dubstep scene
| Facebook Page | Twitter | Soundcloud |

New release! Check 'Murda' on Monkey Dub Recordings, available at most digital music outlets!
Soundcloud

User avatar
koncide
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:08 pm
Location: Nottingham
Contact:

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by koncide » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:06 pm

This is my understanding of it, from my own experience as a massive reason fan as well as information from the reason help file.

It works like a sampler I guess. You have a "waveform" of so many individual sections, or "grains". If you play a note in the synth, if will run through the grains, the speed at which it does so is determined by the motion knob. If you set the motion knob to 0, it will just repeat 1 grain, and if you set it to max, it will run through the grains very quickly. Each grain has a slightly different sound. Most of the waveforms in Malstrom are evolving waveforms for this reason. For some waveforms, like the sine, the index slider has no effect since it's just one grain.

You can get really creative with it. Try setting the motion to 0 and then manually adjusting the index slider (this being what controls whereabouts in the grain table the waveform starts from). By doing this you are manually controlling the movement of the grains. Or you can set an LFO to control the index, moving the grains back and forth, or in steps.

Malstrom is one of the most versatile synths I have ever used. I only wish it had some built in effects. In fact, some built in effects tied to the grain-system, for example, a delay where you can control the delay-grains, reversing, glitching them out, would be sick.
Melodic deepness from my mind.

Soundcloud

Future garage, free DL.

Soundcloud

https://twitter.com/Koncide
https://www.facebook.com/Koncide

samurai
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:26 pm

Re: Does anyone actually know how grain table synthesis work

Post by samurai » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:28 pm

I'm probably (obviously...) biased here but I think Malstrom is such a great synth because of the quality of the samples used. I just find the quality of the in-built wavetables to be ridiculously musical.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests