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[Production Bible 2] Song structures found in Dubstep

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Postby spencertron » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:55 pm

There's many opinions on this subject, alot of peeps appear to have something to say round here... :)

Discuss...for inclusion in the dubstep bible
Last edited by spencertron on Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:02 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:06 pm

From a DJs point of view the whole point in having a structure is two combine two records and have them both doing the same things at the same time. This is in the producers favour as it means I will play his record for longer and it will sound good mixed with another.

If the record drops out of time and does weird shit there is not much chance I am going to play it.

You dont have to stick to x number of bars for an intro, or a breakdown or anything really. Having a consistency through the record is good.

Only thing that matters really is having the first sound on the record and the first drop all in time. I dont know if it is done on purpose but some people have things dropping out of time :evil:
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Postby spencertron » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:10 pm

Serox wrote:From a DJs point of view the whole point in having a structure is two combine two records and have them both doing the same things at the same time. This is in the producers favour as it means I will play his record for longer and it will sound good mixed with another.

If the record drops out of time and does weird shit there is not much chance I am going to play it.

You dont have to stick to x number of bars for an intro, or a breakdown or anything really. Having a consistency through the record is good.

Only thing that matters really is having the first sound on the record and the first drop all in time. I dont know if it is done on purpose but some people have things dropping out of time :evil:


one of my last tunes i made a 29 bar intro...
:)
Last edited by spencertron on Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:11 pm

Dont forget Dubstep DJs are not very good in general so most of the records have a basic formula unfortunately.

Not saying any names but there is a certain producer/dj who has like a 'tune layout' template or something and it sounds like he just fills those gaps:D

His tunes are the easiest records I have ever mixed.
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:12 pm

spencerTron wrote:
one of my last tunes i made a 29 bar intro...thought i'd fuck with the system :)


If you look at Techno bar lengths vary LOADS. It doesnt matter at all. I dont think people should stick to any of that at all.

Just make sure things stop/drop etc in time!

Nothing worse than having a tune start a breakdown only for it to drop out of time.
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Postby spencertron » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:18 pm

-
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Postby kidlogic » Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:57 pm

For the record...

a BAR = a measure...

these two terms should be interchangeable and the length of a bar is determined by the time signature of the tune, i.e. in a 4/4 time signature 1 bar/measure = 4 beats

the time signature determines both the amount of beats to a bar/measure and the type of note that represents one beat. in a 4/4 time signature there are 4 quarter notes (quavers) to one bar/measure.

therefore, in most dubstep (and most EDM for that matter) the length of a bar should never change.


now, on the topic of irregular length intros/breakdowns/outros... do what you want, like was said above. as a dj i have a love hate relationship with 'off time' drops... for instance a 17 measure breakdown into the drop. on the one hand, i really enjoy figuring out exacty how many extra beats there are and finding a mix that works with them, but on the other it can limit the tunes that can be mixed into it because the either need an intro or section with an equal number of beats or measures, or the tune coming in needs an intro that will allow you to mix it in without the listener noticing that the two tunes' phrasing is off until that point in the song which they realign, something with say an intro that is just a high hat and some pads or some random noises or what have you. with dubstep, most of the time the beat patterns are longer than one bar/measure so if the tune starts with a beat straight away the "off" phrasing is more noticeable.

doing an odd length breakdown before the second drop is a good way to get a dj to play the tune past the second breakdown though as a lot of times they will just wait until after the weird part and mix out where its 'normal' again ;)
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:09 pm

kidlogic wrote:
doing an odd length breakdown before the second drop is a good way to get a dj to play the tune past the second breakdown though as a lot of times they will just wait until after the weird part and mix out where its 'normal' again ;)



shh:p

I hate being bullied lol.

If I get a record from a new artist and I sometimes dont even have time to check much of the tune out. So when I go to play it I dont know of any dodgy moments in the track and if it drops out off beat it may put me off buying another one of his tracks personally.

I got a new record last week from the 90s and ever 4 bars it drops off beat lol. Does this back n forth all the way thru it :D
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Postby FSTZ1 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:14 pm

spencerTron wrote:i reckon we should all be a DJ's worst nightmare producer...i don't suggest using rules when trying to make music


disagree

Serox wrote:From a DJs point of view the whole point in having a structure is two combine two records and have them both doing the same things at the same time. This is in the producers favour as it means I will play his record for longer and it will sound good mixed with another.


agree


Serox wrote:Dont forget Dubstep DJs are not very good in general.


disagree

can we stop makeing these production "bibles"???

:roll:
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:21 pm

FSTZ wrote:
Serox wrote:Dont forget Dubstep DJs are not very good in general.


disagree

can we stop makeing these production "bibles"???

:roll:


I am only going by what I hear at clubs/radios bro.

The people playing at the clubs are good producers but they may not be as good at mixing. I am not alone in thinking this, I hear the same quite often.

Dont forget Dubstep is mostly done on computers and all sequenced by computers and to make it even easier they are nearly all the same tempo.

It doesnt even come close to trying to mix old music like Acid House, Electro and HipHop. Shit, even old Techno from the 90s was cut n paste reel to reel shit that does not stay in time.
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Postby kidlogic » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:29 pm

^^ you need to listen to dubstep.fm more ;) just sayin... all our djs are on point.
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Postby daft cunt » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:37 pm

FSTZ wrote:can we stop makeing these production "bibles"???

:roll:

No I think the term bible coins perfectly considering the amount of bullshit the Holy Bible is filled with :D

Just kidding btw. Lot of respect goes to people who contributes.
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Postby FSTZ1 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:41 pm

Daft tnuc wrote:
FSTZ wrote:can we stop makeing these production "bibles"???

:roll:

No I think the term bible coins perfectly considering the amount of bullshit the Holy Bible is filled with :D

Just kidding btw. Lot of respect goes to people who contributes.


ok...

I get it now

my bad

no diss D.C. your first one is mint.

it'd be different if these get edited and compiled into one thread

otherwise anyone can make a "bible" about anything
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:50 pm

kidlogic wrote:^^ you need to listen to dubstep.fm more ;) just sayin... all our djs are on point.


Is that FM? A lot of the FM podcasts I get hold of are quite bad quality that dont show the errors as bad.

Where are your station mixes? I listen to loads and always looking for more.
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Postby kidlogic » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:01 pm

nah, internet station... www.dubstep.fm - full archives on the site and my show is Friday nights 6p PST (2a GMT) and FSTZ is on saturdays usually starting at 12p (8pGMT) i think... I know he's on saturdays for sure...

Shameless plug over... :P

im not going to try to speak for DJs outside of those Ive heard often, but in LA all the DJs are good DJs, most of the dubstep djs come from having spun another genre for years. Pretty much every UK dj who's come over has killed it as well. In my experience with dubstep djs as a whole so far though, its been more good than bad mixing tbh...
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Postby serox » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:06 pm

Yeh cool I will check it out.

Mixing is a personal thing really and I am not impressed often (not saying I am better).
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Postby FSTZ1 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:15 pm

not to toot my own horn, but I rarely fuckup behind the decks

if it happens... that means I am distracted or drunk or the occasional "cat on the turntables"

the guy that runs the station will kick you off if you fuck up more than once
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Postby jolly wailer » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:20 pm

not really disagreeing with anything in this thread, but I had some thoughts while reading it:


who's to say you still aren't being 'artistic' if you take a predictable template and do something original with it?

just because something is 32/64/128 bars long doesn't discount all the variety that could be happening within those bars.

there's definitly a line of thinking in edm that embraces the mechanical-ness of repetitive beats.

and also imo the convention in dubstep of a say 32 bar intro of just quarter notes and sparse piece elements is something I have patience for.. that minimalism sounds great from the edge.. to me. the simple intros are actually what i liked most about dubstep at first.

Structure implies convention. Something people just 'get', possibly unthinkingly, but some consensus was arrived at that structures get used. you will have a harder time arguing for there to be 'no structure' when its obvious that the structures are useful to practically everyone. There is a reason that 16 bars sounds like a self-resolving phrase length and 13 bars doesn't, just like there is a reason why most people can't dance to free jazz. If people realize that there is some predictability going on with a beat it will compel them to dance to it because they know they won't be left hanging out to dry by music that falls apart rhymically/structurally. The patterns of body movement have their correlate in the patterns of music. Rhythm, cycles and patterns are the structures that are molded out from chaos, and have something to do with music's usefulness as a cultural tool.

I can't tell you why its multiples of 4. It just is. I suspect the origins are pretty deep.
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Postby spencertron » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:29 pm

Jolly Wailer wrote:not really disagreeing with anything in this thread, but I had some thoughts while reading it:


who's to say you still aren't being 'artistic' if you take a predictable template and do something original with it?

just because something is 32/64/128 bars long doesn't discount all the variety that could be happening within those bars.

there's definitly a line of thinking in edm that embraces the mechanical-ness of repetitive beats.

and also imo the convention in dubstep of a say 32 bar intro of just quarter notes and sparse piece elements is something I have patience for.. that minimalism sounds great from the edge.. to me. the simple intros are actually what i liked most about dubstep at first.

Structure implies convention. Something people just 'get', possibly unthinkingly, but some consensus was arrived at that structures get used. you will have a harder time arguing for there to be 'no structure' when its obvious that the structures are useful to practically everyone. There is a reason that 16 bars sounds like a self-resolving phrase length and 13 bars doesn't, just like there is a reason why most people can't dance to free jazz. If people realize that there is some predictability going on with a beat it will compel them to dance to it because they know they won't be left hanging out to dry by music that falls apart rhymically/structurally. The patterns of body movement have their correlate in the patterns of music. Rhythm, cycles and patterns are the structures that are molded out from chaos, and have something to do with music's usefulness as a cultural tool.

I can't tell you why its multiples of 4. It just is. I suspect the origins are pretty deep.


people seem to be debating in agreement on all aspects of this.
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Postby FSTZ1 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:48 pm

Jolly Wailer wrote:I can't tell you why its multiples of 4. It just is. I suspect the origins are pretty deep.


I agree with you...

like a chess board, or the I-Ching

all multiples of 4 & 8 in segments of 64

very deep
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