gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[promo]

I sort of understand the principle of what Macc is saying but surely due to variation in the actual recorded level of different samples that the most obvious thing is to have some limiter on each channel.

I just had a play around with a track that I'm working on but I'm still getting clipping at the same point in the track although I've take all the levels down in accordance with Macc's advice.

I'm gonna stick with it but this is without doubt one of the biggest fuckers to crack in production!!

[Brisance]

Why don't you just normalise them or adjust their levels?

[promo]

Why don't you just normalise them or adjust their levels?

So if I normalise everything to 0db and then work from there perhaps that's a solution? Problem is I'm working with a mixture of VSTs and samples with variation in their volume.

[rob sparx]

I like to write my tunes loud and use a mastering limiter before I've had them mastered properly - this way I can get the mix to a comparable volume to other tunes im mixing it in with and can test it out on cds (all u dubplate fans can fuk off times are hard and im not travelling to London and spending a shit load every time I want a few tunes cut!). I don't think many people are going to get a tune mastered without playing it out a bit first so the high volume is very important - try mixing a quiet premaster into a mastered tune and you'll know what im talking about (club limiters are not the best tool for getting a tune louder!).

Obviously volume has to come down for the premaster but I always do that last - I find by writing loud u know roughly how loud your tune will sound when it gets mastered whereas if u write quiet u dont have a clue how loud the tune will be able to get at the final stage and u might end up with a quiet master (due to freqeuency overlaps) that no sound engineer no matter how skilled they are can fix. Ok they might be able to get more volume by turning down the bass but that can make a tune sound a lot worse.

I work with my sub about -4 or -5 and I limit it a lot (Kjaerhus MPL-1 - no other limiter does it for me on sub) so I can push the sub (60hz as wide bandwidth as possible, standard cubase EQ my fav for sub) without distortion, Kicks and snares are a bit louder -2 to -3.

Be VERY CAREFUL when u do get your tune mastered its very easy for an engineer to either:

a) Use a 'wrong' limiter at the mastering stage so u have a horrible pumping effect which u might unfortunately not notice until u listen in headphones at home later (many engineers dont bother with headphones which show these problems a lot better than monitors)! I'm using voxengo elephant for my early mixes and this limiter is very transparent (no pumping) whereas on certain tunes the hardware L2/TC limiters can sound horrific.

OR

b) Push the volume too much and slightly overcook the sound

If your tune comes out with these problems then you may as well have done your own mastering and not wasted your money!

[cixxxj]

Sorry if it isn't really answering your question, but -3 is way too high.

Remember that 6dB is half. So if you have one element at -6, that is half your headroom gone. Two elements at -6dB each = all your headroom gone. Having the drums at -3 will leave you fighting against clipping and struggling to keep everything down and under control.

Rather, set your drums for *around* -8 / -10 (ie, a bit less than half). The bass - if we are talking a pure sine sub - would probably sit best a dB or two below that, any distorted/fullband bass sounds should be effectively treated as different entities and mixed appropriately (due to Fletcher Munson).

This leaves you with a few dB headroom, and everything else is just parsley. No more fighting anything, you *will* get repeatable and consistent levels in your mixes, and better mixes as a result.

read the thread and every linked item, GOLDMINE !! Just a question, maybe stupid, but just to clarify things. When you say 'around -8/-10' are we talking about an average value, RMS value or peak value?

[moodswing]

Wow. Awesome thread. Fletcher-Munson curves, relative gain structure and plenty of hands-on practical advise. There is more to this forum and its members than meets the eye. I am really glad to be a part . Beginners should take notes these are things that were normally understood after years of dedication, study and experience and here they are for (y)our consumption and FREE.

[wndj]

Hi, new to the forum. had to join after reading this thread.
Story for you macc and a couple questions.
Ive had a couple remixes released late last year. they sounded alright out but when i did hear them out i couldnt help but be dissapointed in a sense cause things got lost in a mix.
I used to make all my stuff with a compressor on the master the whole time (vintage warmer) and would do what a lot of people were saying and try squeezing as much sound out as possible (which was silly cause i i heavily distorted the bass and found it so hard to find the kick and snare).
It all changed a few months ago when this guy noticed what i was doing with a song and got me to take the shit off the master (needless to say u could then see just how clippy it was haha), then we turned everything down so it wasnt clipping. Listened in my car (which have pretty decent speakers)...and even that makes theeeeee biggest difference. sure to get the same volume i had to turn it up a shitload more in my car...but at the same volume the old mix sounded so flat where as with the new mix the sounds really popped out and sat in their place really well.

theres my 'little' story.
Now down to the questions.
I know this thread is about the actual mix and not the mastering...
but i seemed to have gotten that down now...
Im currently mixing to 0db without anything on the master but i WOULD like to get more volume out of my mixes (1. I would like to know how to do it and 2. would be helpful for when i want to play things out in the transition between me giving them to masterer and getting them back).

So from what i read before you suggested one should mix to about -3db give or take before handing it off to a mastering engineer yes?

Would u suggest if i wanted to do a mastering job myself...for playing out, handing out, whatever, untill i get it properly mastered, that i do the mix to -3db, render it out, bring it back in, and then try bring it up to the levels of other songs using something like the waves bundle (which i have but obviousley havnt used as i only have just gotten to a stage that i understand the importance of a good mix). or did i miss something or how would u do it?

Cheers
WN

[macc]

Glad this stuff is helping some people

these are things that were normally understood after years of dedication, study and experience and here they are for (y)our consumption and FREE

Totally man. That's the thing... I just like to help because alllll those mistakes, I have made them all in the past. Just trying to help people save time and frustration. But everyone has to find their own way I suppose, I don't wish to be overbearing.

just to clarify things. When you say 'around -8/-10' are we talking about an average value, RMS value or peak value?

Peak

[macc]

Let me just get my hot chocolate....

... okay, go

Ive had a couple remixes released late last year. they sounded alright out but when i did hear them out i couldnt help but be dissapointed in a sense cause things got lost in a mix.
I used to make all my stuff with a compressor on the master the whole time (vintage warmer)

agghhh

and would do what a lot of people were saying and try squeezing as much sound out as possible (which was silly cause i i heavily distorted the bass and found it so hard to find the kick and snare).
It all changed a few months ago when this guy noticed what i was doing with a song and got me to take the shit off the master (needless to say u could then see just how clippy it was haha), then we turned everything down so it wasnt clipping. Listened in my car (which have pretty decent speakers)...and even that makes theeeeee biggest difference. sure to get the same volume i had to turn it up a shitload more in my car...but at the same volume the old mix sounded so flat where as with the new mix the sounds really popped out and sat in their place really well.

The moral of the story: Squashing is bad kids!

So from what i read before you suggested one should mix to about -3db give or take before handing it off to a mastering engineer yes?

The whole point of everything I've said in this thread is that if you build your mix right, you never even have to look at the master. If you build it right things will naturally add up and ys, probably end up somewhere around -3ish. But don't sit obsessing cos it is at -4.... Just make your tune and start low enough at the track/sample level so when you add them all up it doesn't clip. End of story.

Would u suggest if i wanted to do a mastering job myself...for playing out, handing out, whatever, untill i get it properly mastered, that i do the mix to -3db, render it out, bring it back in, and then try bring it up to the levels of other songs using something like the waves bundle (which i have but obviousley havnt used as i only have just gotten to a stage that i understand the importance of a good mix). or did i miss something or how would u do it?

That's a lot of money to spend on something you're not using

Anyway, it took me a lot of years to realise that self-mastering on the same system you mixed the tune on is a waste of time. If you missed a problem during all that time mixing it, then you're not likely to spot it in 'mastering'. That's why you give it to someone else.

Therefore, if you have faith that your mix is the best you can have it, then what's the point doing anything other than going for final level? If you're changing stuff after the fact then your mix obviously isn't finished, because apparently you can still improve it.

Standard reasons for self-mastering:

'sweetening eq' - why didn't you make it sweeter in your mix

'fixing eq problems' - why didn't you do that in your mix

'rolling off lows' - why didn't you do it in your mix

'making it wider and stuff' - why didn't you make it wide in your mix

etc etc

So;

Get the mix right. Perhaps - PERHAPS - some overall compression IF it has a specific need for it (but still, you did it right in the mix, no?). Limit as appropriate.

If you can't get it loud enough from there without damaging it very badly, there's probably something wrong in your mix, and you'd probably do well to get someone else (pro or not, just someone else) to have a look at it.

If you are going to do the 'self mastering' thing, then I would wait AT LEAST a week after mixing down and working on other stuff.

[moodswing]

Macc do you live in a tent in the forum somewhere? Honestly dude you seem to always be around to offer a helping hand. And how come you don't hog the info?
I spend 3 days out of every week working as an assistant-apprentice (read bitch) to the one single proper mastering engineer in my (musically) pathetic city and that guy keeps his secrets like the old fart he is. Seriously I've learned more in the 2 weeks i am a member of DSF than in the 2+ years I've been running errands for that guy in order to get access to his gear... And I consider myself to be a little advanced in the game. Makes you think don't it.... And imagine i have a day job too. Thanks and keep it up .

[macc]

Macc do you live in a tent in the forum somewhere? Honestly dude you seem to always be around to offer a helping hand.

Are you saying I don't have a life?

And how come you don't hog the info?
I spend 3 days out of every week working as an assistant-apprentice (read bitch) to the one single proper mastering engineer in my (musically) pathetic city and that guy keeps his secrets like the old fart he is. Seriously I've learned more in the 2 weeks i am a member of DSF than in the 2+ years I've been running errands for that guy in order to get access to his gear... And I consider myself to be a little advanced in the game. Makes you think don't it.... And imagine i have a day job too. Thanks and keep it up .

I just like to help, and I'm glad it seems to help some people

Hogging information is both unhelpful and self-defeating. I like music to sound good, and it makes my work easier. Why NOT help people? I have never understood that. Music isn't a competition. Well, only with oneself, to express your feelings in the best possible way. If I can help people do that by helping to get things sounding better, magic.

Sounds like you're going about it the right way though man - best of luck to you, soak alllll the information up that you can from the dude.

[moodswing]

soak alllll the information up that you can from the dude.

Yeah thats the plan . And then I'll kill him after I make him sign the studio over to ME. Seriously tho all people who can find time (I do it and i don't know what free time is) should try to find someone from the old guard and leech-let them leech you. Even the errand running can teach you loads as the "boring" tasks around a professional studio are the absolute basics (especially about miking and routing). Oh and learning how to make a perfect cup of coffee is a useful skill and a dying art.

[stickybuds~]

Use prefade sends to 2 groups.

THESE NUMBERS ARE APPROXIMATE AND MAY VARY (I shouldn't even have to say that but some people seem to take a number and think it is gospel )

Gp1 - LP eq at ~ 80-90Hz

Gp2 - HP eq at ~ 180-200Hz

Both those groups get routed to group 3, 'bass out' or whatever.

Macc I would like to really thank you and the others who have shed some really quality and usable knowledge in this thread. My friend sent me a link to this and I've enjoyed slacking off at work and reading.

Anyways, so I have a question about this. I know you said that some of the sub harmonics will be in the missing zone of bass from roughly 100 - 200 hz, but do you feel that the sub and main lines will still sound nice and beefy with this zone removed? The point of this is to leave room for your kick drum, but if your kick is only on the one and three there are large spots in between the kicks where this frequency of bass will be left out...

So basically I'm asking do you find this method better than side chaining your kick to the sub line?

Once again thank you for the info, I am stoked to put some of your guys' tips into practice. Also stoked to be a part of this forum and read up...

Ez.

[macc]

Anyways, so I have a question about this. I know you said that some of the sub harmonics will be in the missing zone of bass from roughly 100 - 200 hz, but do you feel that the sub and main lines will still sound nice and beefy with this zone removed?

It depends.

It depends how you cross over, innit How you approach this area depends on the content you're dealing with. These super-rich distorto-basses everyone on this forum seems to love will have loads of content there that overwhelms the true sub content. So it will need more taming. An 808 might not need any.

Besides which, remember that filters aren't brick walls, and the steeper a filter is the more it rings, more phase distortion it causes etc etc. What I am getting at is that I'm not saying about using 58 HP filters to get a brickwall filter with no content in that area. Maybe a 12dB/oct on the LP and HP, gentle enough not to fuck stuff up and also shallow enough to allow some of that content through - not dissimilar to an eq. If need be you can make them sharper (I'd probably lean towards GlissEQ or something with a variable slope) to eliminate a bit more.

I used those numbers an example, but like I say, worrying too much about the numbers or approaching everything with the same technique leads to ruin. Personally I'd eq out that area a little if it needs it, and if it REALLY needs it (and I am doing other stuff to the upper band) I'll do the crossover thing. Or not. I'm not going to chop anything out if it doesn't need it. Whatever. It depends


.....


I'm going to apologise in advance here. You've stumbled on something that has been bothering me for a while, it's not your fault, and it' nothing to do with you.... but I feel a rant coming on

The point of this is to leave room for your kick drum, but if your kick is only on the one and three there are large spots in between the kicks where this frequency of bass will be left out...

SO FUCKING WHAT?!?? Why does everything have to be full all the time? What the fuck happened to people's concept of SPACE in their fucking music?

So basically I'm asking do you find this method better than side chaining your kick to the sub line?

This shit, I mean, I think I went on holiday or just didn't read enough forums or something, but suddenly sidechaining is this saviour of all shit. Bollocks. It's a tool, and it can be handy. But sidechaining all this shit to all everything else to shoehorn another element that doesn't NATURALLY fit into the mix in... I mean, it has a place in certain styles and all that but FFS, it's a last resort or a creative effect. Pick the right sounds and they coexist, naturally, easily, beautifully.

Sidechaining leads to this awful situation where you have no SPACE in the mix, everything is constantly pushing other things out of the way, everything rushing in around everything else and back and forth like some sort of sonic fucking quicksand and all at the cost of SPACE. Or, rather, because of the absence of space. They're not coexisting, they're fighting for room. It's not natural. I say again, it can work, and it can be useful creatively, yes. Sometimes, just occasionally, it is the only option. But I think before I started hearing about it absolutely everywhere I had used it on two mixes in about 86 billion.

It's bandied about as an easy way to make things work together in the mix, but the fact is, plain and simple, it's sticking plaster, a bandaid or whatever you call it where you come from. It increasingly being used as a cover up for lack of sound selection/arrangement skills and/or the lack of eq ability. It makes up for the fact that these people - newbies a lot of the time - don't even know how to choose sounds that work naturally, and they're compounding their sonic misery by throwing more processing after bad decisions. There's too much shit there, and not enough room.


Those bits where there are 'gaps' (isn't it terrible!) are what lets your tune breathe, have air or space or whatever. Everything has its own place, and they all fit together to fill the spectrum and soundstage. Everything does its own job, they all fit around and together and work with coordinated independence, and when they are resting there is space, and not all this other shit rushing in to fill it because of some misguided notion that everything has to be on all the time. Everything all the time is tiresome. As Thelonious Monk said, what you don't play is just as important as what you do play.

Now go and listen to Kind of Blue, and think about this while you're listening.




Right... sorry about that. Back to polite mode.

Hope this helps

[stickybuds~]

Hahahaha.

Awesome Macc, thank you for answering my question, even with the rant. Feel better?

You have a great perspective on a lot of things that maybe people love to shoot off about but don't really understand what is really at hand. What you just said makes a lot of sense, I have not heard many opinions such as that...

Once again looking forward to putting this into practice.... I hope I can ask you more questions in the future that will bring more knowledgeable rant action.

Best!~

[macc]

[megaladon]

Do the level meters on Reason really translate to the dB readings in Logic etc. ? (I realise this might be a really dumb question) It doesn't display db obviously but does pushing the red on the reason mixer cause the same problems as has been gone over in this thread? Thumbs up for the thread by the way. Creating solely in reason I just don't find the tweaking of the master fader much different to my speaker volume.

[moodswing]

This shit, I mean, I think I went on holiday or just didn't read enough forums or something, but suddenly sidechaining is this saviour of all shit. Bollocks. It's a tool, and it can be handy. But sidechaining all this shit to all everything else to shoehorn another element that doesn't NATURALLY fit into the mix in... I mean, it has a place in certain styles and all that but FFS, it's a last resort or a creative effect. Pick the right sounds and they coexist, naturally, easily, beautifully.

Sidechaining leads to this awful situation where you have no SPACE in the mix, everything is constantly pushing other things out of the way, everything rushing in around everything else and back and forth like some sort of sonic fucking quicksand and all at the cost of SPACE. Or, rather, because of the absence of space. They're not coexisting, they're fighting for room. It's not natural. I say again, it can work, and it can be useful creatively, yes. Sometimes, just occasionally, it is the only option. But I think before I started hearing about it absolutely everywhere I had used it on two mixes in about 86 billion.

Amen to that. I had never used sidechaining before somebody asked me to for a "madonna style" ducking effect on a pad when the kick was hitting and I can't say I liked it that much creatively even then. There are other ways to creatively modulate the amplitude of a sound in time and without the element of easily killing the dynamics(i.e. s/c comps,gates etc). Everybody's raving about wobble so why not use an LFO on the master volume? Many vst-fx have assingable LFOs. What about automating the volume? The right curve in the right place can even add interest to the whole thing. Fully automatic things like sidechains are imo sometimes too rigid to work around creatively. For sidechains as a mixing tool I'll quote that old bastard i mentioned earlier in the thread in free translation from greek:

If you can hear it working , it's not working properly.

Also on the matter of space , you can solve many mixing problems with panning and placing things in a good position in the stereo image, saving a good amount of eq'ing for where its needed as many sounds occupying the exact same point in space is sure to sound like soup. Imagine an acoustic band on a stage and all of them standing directly in front of each other. I'd love to hear how to eq that.

I know these are pretty basic stuff here but imho they are very frequently overlooked.

[c03]

cheers for the tips, i dread 2 think how many years it would have taken me to learn this stuff myself.

maybe one day someone who read this thread will produce a hit and send you some money, mysterious benefactor style