gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

daft cunt · Post by **daft cunt** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:05 pm

Macc can you tell me if this looks right to you plz. The volume increase when the bass is dropping looks a bit big although there are no clashing frequencies with the sub & it's about 2 dB quieter than the drums as you suggested.

serox · Post by **serox** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:07 pm

I take it the thin line is -6db?

shouldn't that be where things peak?!

serox · Post by **serox** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:07 pm

djake wrote:this thread is gold

Dont get me wrong I am not trying to tell macc anything! I am just trying to understand things better

daft cunt · Post by **daft cunt** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:21 pm

Serox wrote:I take it the thin line is -6db?

shouldn't that be where things peak?!

Yes it's the -6dB line. According to Macc, drums are at about ~ -9dB, the sub is 2dB quieter, no clashing frequencies, it should be fine. Still it looks weird to me

macc · Post by **macc** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:40 pm

Serox wrote: sorry to argue but
if I leave it like that when I give it to people to listen to it sounds really quiet:/

You don't leave it like that. You're still completely missing the point

It sounds to me like you're fighting to get loads of level into everything to try and reach the levels you hear in other pieces. This is not the best way to do it.

Rather, you should turn the others down and match the QUALITY of mr big time's released tune, which presumably was was well mixed and mastered by a top mastering engineer. If you match the quality, leave the natural dynamics and punch and allow your shit to breathe, simply make the tune sound as big and powerful in and of itself (ie, it has quality)... then (good) mastering will be able to make the level go where it needs to. THEN you give it to DJs.

In short; make it sound the absolute fucking bollocks, no clipping, limiting or any degrading processes like that over your mix. Forget the level - this is a matter for mastering. In the mix you should worry about QUALITY, and about it representing your musical idea appropriately with the highest attainable fidelity.

If you achieve that goal, then mastering will take care of the level with ease.

Dont know why but it seemed to make sense if I made my master volumn the same as other tunes and try and mix everything so it sounds the same. I am not putting things in the red but they are quite close:)

Then, if I am reading you right, you are pretty much guaranteed to be squashing the shit out of everything. Those other tunes have already been treated to the max by top pros with top gear and ears blah blah blah. Bring them down to your level and try to match quality. Then when your ME raises the level at the end, it will come much more easily.

The bottom line is that a good, clean, punchy, fat, powerful master comes from a good, clean, punchy, fat, powerful mix. The gain structuring I suggested in the first post is a good way to achieve that. Once you watch those peak levels and learn to get maximum power from the minimum voltage (without just limiting every channel), you're well away.

@Daft tnuc, that's a pretty picture

It 'looks' fine to me. What were you expecting, to add something to the mix, and it to stay the same level?

macc · Post by **macc** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:43 pm

Daft tnuc wrote:
Serox wrote:I take it the thin line is -6db?

shouldn't that be where things peak?!
Yes it's the -6dB line. According to Macc, drums are at about ~ -9dB, the sub is 2dB quieter, no clashing frequencies, it should be fine. Still it looks weird to me

Don't be so strict about numbers - 2dB and so on. I suggested rough peak levels and this may change depending on the nature of the sound, the amount of compression you're doing, the quality of your source, ra ra ra ra. These are just general guidelines, not rules!

I don't understand why you think it looks weird. You're adding two sounds. Of course it is going to peak higher.

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:44 pm

^ just from sight, that's the kind of bounce that i'd get and think, awesome, there's enough headroom here for me to limit/maybe compress and not totally change how things sound.

There's a couple of reasons for keeping your mix levels low. first and foremost is sound... your meters, both physical (on your converter) and digital (in your daw) are only so fast, and can easily miss transients that are a few dB above what you see. keeping even the smallest things from clipping results in more space for your mix.

sometimes you can even see this happen in a DAW: put a compressor on a channel that's peaking around -3, and set the threshold to 0, and the attack as fast as possible. quite often you'll see it working-- when it shouldn't be

.
and that's the biggest thing-- when there's headroom all around, i mean from the original audio, thru channel plugs, thru busses, thru the master-- mixes fit together a whole lot easier. it's like moving into a new apartment-- it's a lot nicer when you have space to breathe, as opposed to it be crammed full of shit.

you can always make a mix w/ good headroom louder, but the key is having enough space to get the elements to sit right. if you desperately have to compress and eq everything to fit into the mix... turn shit down!

FWIW i try to build mixes w/ my kick and snare peaking at -9... as the mix develops it generally winds up peaking between -6 and -4. headroom for days and a whole lot easier to manage.

plus, play a tune like that out on serato and all you've gotta do is turn the gain up to compete w/ a proper master in terms of punch, since your drums are nice and full--especially if you're using a mixer w/ a good output stage that can get into the red and be forgiving (rane, a&h, etc). an overcompressed, fill-to-the-brim mix may be loud, but it'll lack the impact of something that's got more space.

blunt-dmo · Post by **blunt-dmo** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:27 pm

this thread is really fkin helpfull tbh

futures_untold · Post by **futures_untold** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:51 pm

Depone wrote:I used to want to push every sound to its max, and then struggle in the mixing/self mastering stage.

Now what i do is before i even load a synth or plug, i pull every channel down -6 to -8db, and turn the speakers up instead. And then Mix-as-i-go sort of approach. And generally I wont have to fight levels on the master channel.

Does anyone else do this? am i doing it wrong???

+1

blunt-dmo · Post by **blunt-dmo** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:54 pm

ive just tried what macc suggested as i was having problems with the mix doing exactly what he explained would happen if shizzle was too high on the db's

its sick. it does work

setspeed · Post by **setspeed** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:09 am

TeReKeTe wrote:FWIW i try to build mixes w/ my kick and snare peaking at -9... as the mix develops it generally winds up peaking between -6 and -4. headroom for days and a whole lot easier to manage.

plus, play a tune like that out on serato and all you've gotta do is turn the gain up to compete w/ a proper master in terms of punch, since your drums are nice and full--especially if you're using a mixer w/ a good output stage that can get into the red and be forgiving (rane, a&h, etc). an overcompressed, fill-to-the-brim mix may be loud, but it'll lack the impact of something that's got more space.

^^^ played a gig earlier this year and finished with Michael Jackon's P.Y.T. (from the Thriller album, which was what, 1984?). It's not pushed, it's not squashed at all really, but sounded so much better than the 2 hours of house/dubstep/breaks/jungle we had just been rinsing. so much more punchy, yet with depth. Really learned something that day

ta7 · Post by **ta7** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:22 pm

POWER comes from a good mix. Get the mix right and the level will take care of itself.

Wise.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:03 pm

Depone wrote:I used to want to push every sound to its max, and then struggle in the mixing/self mastering stage.

Now what i do is before i even load a synth or plug, i pull every channel down -6 to -8db, and turn the speakers up instead. And then Mix-as-i-go sort of approach. And generally I wont have to fight levels on the master channel.

Does anyone else do this? am i doing it wrong???

Sounds spot on to me.

Though you could always turn the synth/audio file down and keep your faders near/at 0dB

You can make even finer adjustments then as the fader resolution is better nearer unity gain

Mad_EP · Post by **Mad_EP** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:22 pm

To be honest-

I feel Macc deserves his own thread of appreciation...

...but in lieu of that, I will just say that I hope people read what he types and pay the fuck attention.. cos he really knows what he is talking about.

There are a couple others too - TeReKeTe & Paradigm X immediately come to mind - who are on point. I just hope people are able to recognize when really good advice is is given freely and to take heed. It is a rare gift.

Brisance · Post by **Brisance** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:25 pm

Fuck me. I turned everything down in my mix and upped so they would peak under -6db and then boosted the master volume until it was peaking at 0. The mix improved tenfold.

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:22 pm

setspeed wrote: ^^^ played a gig earlier this year and finished with Michael Jackon's P.Y.T. (from the Thriller album, which was what, 1984?). It's not pushed, it's not squashed at all really, but sounded so much better than the 2 hours of house/dubstep/breaks/jungle we had just been rinsing. so much more punchy, yet with depth. Really learned something that day

that's also bruce swedien on the mix, who uses close to zero compression but a ton of fader rides to keep levels consistent.

he's also amongst the nicest guys in the business. He mixed a couple of tracks i played on a few years ago-- my playing's never sounded better. dude is just a blanket of love on the music.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:48 pm

TeReKeTe wrote:your meters, both physical (on your converter) and digital (in your daw) are only so fast, and can easily miss transients that are a few dB above what you see. keeping even the smallest things from clipping results in more space for your mix.

sometimes you can even see this happen in a DAW: put a compressor on a channel that's peaking around -3, and set the threshold to 0, and the attack as fast as possible. quite often you'll see it working-- when it shouldn't be .

This isn't exactly cos the meters are too slow (though in a sense that is the case) - it's intersample peaks being shown up by an oversampling compressor

Nevertheless, the point is spot on

(edit.... actually I spose it is pretty much the same thing. It boils down to them being digital peak meters and not actual reconstructed signal meters. So yeah... same thing - too slow in that they only update at the sample rate

)

ISPs are another reason to keep the levels down. I get mixdowns all the time where people have kept it up near 0 and the oversampling meter shows ISPs all the way through. I have to turn it down anyway to avoid clipping my DAC on the way out to analogue

jheri · Post by **jheri** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:18 am

This thread needs to be a sticky, some seriously good info in here.

yeager · Post by **yeager** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:46 am

gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

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