(re: skream - "traitor") -- much ado about offbeat

[joseph-j]

i started this as more of a monologue.

It was more of a rant actually.

[metalboxproducts]

Stop it before it get out of hand. Did you see the thread last night with JJ and Ekaj gettin all hot. It was funny. I wanted to contribute but i was to pissed

[rekall]

p.s. "drops a beat early"
people might not know how to flail their arms and legs for a whole half second!!!
OH GOD THE HORROR!

i'm going to go listen to more hellfish+producer to deprogram some more.

[ufo over easy]

one man's "out of time" is another man's "pleasant syncopation."

Until the tune drops a beat early and everything's messed up

You did ask for people opinions dude.

actually no where did i ask, i started this as more of a monologue.
but thanks just the same for the comments.
(no thanks for the personal attacks suggesting along the lines that i'm just a noob.)

It's a message board, I assumed as you were posting to the public you might like a reply.

I wasn't attacking you, I just assumed as you couldn't identify the first beat of a 4/4 bar that you hadn't done any music theory. Why would you assume it'd be a negative thing to be a beginner anyway? The other reason I thought you might need some help was that you thought I'd mixed Traitor starting on the second beat of the bar when I hadn't - shows a simple misunderstanding of the way the tune is structured.

p.s. "drops a beat early"
people might not know how to flail their arms and legs for a whole half second!!!
OH GOD THE HORROR!

It's not that, it's more the fact that it just sounds wrong. The melody line sounds out of place, and it's not how the tune was designed to sound. Seeing as you've been agonising about this so much I'd assume you think there is a right or wrong way to do this...

[bedward]

it's a shit tune anyway, just forget it.
if you all knew a bit more about music theory, you'd know this was a shit tune, and that's a fact.

[rekall]

since 'music theory' is still being bandied about:

syn‧co‧pa‧tion –noun
a shifting of the normal accent, usually by stressing the normally unaccented beats.

charleston variations

Jazz accents typically occur on the "other side" of the metric accents, thus providing both a tug against the meter and a balance within it. Thus, in a series of quarter notes in 4/4 time, the metric accents occur on beats 1 and 3 and jazz accents (since about 1940 or so) appear on beats 2 and 4. Eighth notes work the same way. The 4/4 meter implies stress on the first eighth note of a beat and jazz accents occur on the second (with the durations of the eighth note pair developing into a near triplet relationship). In the notational examples discussed so far, the Charleston motive has always started on metrically strong beats of a 4/4 measure (which determines its second attack to occur on metrically weak beats i.e. positions of strong jazz accents.) With the exception of So What , which starts on beat 3, all the previous examples begin on beat 1. So, the all-important characteristic of accent balance is present in the Charleston motive since its two attack points contain both a strong metric accent (beat 1 or 3) and a strong jazz accent (beat 2 1/2 or 4 1/2).

-- http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/the.article.html

The framework which is improvised upon, a lead sheet for 'So What' for example, may be written down. But in most circumstances a tune as simple as 'So What' would probably not be written down at all. It would be previously memorised or just heard and then copied by the players. But listen to any of the multitude of recorded performances of that tune and one will quickly realise that what does pre-exist, the simple call-and-response melody, is only a starting point, one of many possible ways it could - and will - go.

-- http://www.jazzcontinuum.com/jc_rtcl5.html

[ufo over easy]

I know that, I'm a drummer.

Syncopation doesn't change the beats of the bar. The structure of a syncopated 4/4 bar is the same as the structure of an unsyncopated 4/4 bar. It still starts on beat one - it's just the emphasis of the beats that's changed, not the beats themselves.

The highlighted bit in the second quote does not apply to a simple dubstep tune with a normal structure. They're talking about improvisation for goodness' sake..

I'm not judging anything by the melody itself, but by the feel of the whole tune. This isn't something that's debatable, it's just the way it is.

I don't understand what you're trying to say - are you trying to equate DJing to free improv jazz??

[rekall]

funny when i syncopate i count polyrhythmically usually 6/8 or 3/4 over an existing 4/4 rhythm. why not think of a 2nd tune being mixed over a base the same way? yes, blending two records can in fact be jazz.

[ufo over easy]

funny when i syncopate i count polyrhythmically usually 6/8 or 3/4 over an existing 4/4 rhythm. why not think of a 2nd tune being mixed over a base the same way?

Because both tunes that're being mixed are in the same time signature.

[rekall]

The highlighted bit in the second quote does not apply to a simple dubstep tune with a normal structure.

actually, to me it does or else i wouldn't have bothered with the [ b ] tags.

depending on where you end up placing the snare of one tune with respect to another you do in fact end up with exactly the two sets of accents as per the bolded section i quoted above.

as for the melodic bits getting shifted around as a result of doing that, and it sounding "wrong" that's really quite subjective.


the only reason i'm carrying on about this is because you are doing same.

[metalboxproducts]

Lets have drum off.

[ufo over easy]

The point of syncopation is that the emphasis of the rhythm lies differently in an existing 4/4 template. That template is unchanging. Syncopation isn't just lining up two different sets of 4/4 and spinning them out of time, it doesn't work like that.. you don't have enough power over the tracks when you're DJing to make that sound good. You can't improvise in the same way you can if you're playing a live instrument.

[rekall]

The point of syncopation is that the emphasis of the rhythm lies differently in an existing 4/4 template.

oh, you mean for example layering a second percussive element (snare) so it fits 'in between' the upbeat and downbeat, on the half beats, thus accenting a previously unaccented beat? something like that?

[doomstep]

Lets have drum off.

out t u lot, half 4 AM giggles

[metalboxproducts]

Lets have drum off.

out t u lot, half 4 AM giggles

You still not gone to bed yet? Still buzzin from Mr 9? Was the Space ape there?

[rekall]

Syncopation isn't just lining up two different sets of 4/4 and spinning them out of time, it doesn't work like that.. you don't have enough power over the tracks when you're DJing to make that sound good.

TRY to tell that to any number of techno dj's who have made a whole career out of tweaking mid-measure cue points.

[doomstep]

Lets have drum off.

out t u lot, half 4 AM giggles

You still not gone to bed yet? Still buzzin from Mr 9? Was the Space ape there?

nah

I wish

Im too scared t go t my 'dorm' ina backpackers n ting

they was all beddin down as I left

if I go up der it'll be bad fr me

why do I always get stuck ina room full of gyals???

must be my babyface looks innit

[bedward]

it's a shit tune anyway, just forget it.
if you all knew a bit more about music theory, you'd know this was a shit tune, and that's a fact.

not to be taken seriously ^^^

i once saw a sign in a pub saying,
"word to the wise: never publicly engage a fool in argument. most ppl can't tell the difference."
sth like that anyway.
never made sense to me...

[digital]

WTF

Just mix the fucking records man

[spooky]

WTF

Just mix the fucking records man

alie

just mix
expirement
its not hard to fling a needle on a tune and mix