Cubase Mixdowns

[deadly_habit]

the same little gremlins that open my garage door for me keep my cubase mixdowns from clipping when i push the red

i just have to make sure to not feed em after midnight

[macc]

Even if your shit isn't distorting in Cubase (I use 4) and they have something that makes it transparently not distort, I'd assume you might be squashing some transients still. If your mix isn't balanced right won't that attitude make it lack a lot of punch and have this mess of flat sound? I'm assuming when a company makes a DAW they have their own programming and definition of what makes something clip? Reason might clip at different stage than where Cubase might clip? I hope I'm making sense? Or am I? What?

You're making perfect sense. There's a few issues to pick apart here;

All programs clip at 0dBFS.

The cubase meter shows +6.3dB or whatever into the red because that is the summed value output by the 32-bit floating point summing engine. When it is reduced to 24-bit (for output to the real world), which is if you like at the bottom of the master channel, information above that point is shaved off ie clipped.

Whether you can hear the clipping or not depends on a great many factors - mainly how long it clips for and how hard, also frequency content (which relates to both of the previous points). Clipping *can at times* be more honest to the signal and maintain the impression of punch better than limiting. It depends on the signal, and the circumstances.

But the fact of the matter is; it is clipping. There's no magic device on the output. Get a 50Hz sine wave and push it through the output - you'll reach the same conclusion.

[MARCHMELLOW]

So Macc,

just for the record, and my piece of mind, casue i greatly respect your input, what would you say is a better way of working -

1. not watching the master meter, unless you actually hear clipping

2. watch the meter, keep everything quietish till the mastering stage

for me, i just hate limiting, as long as i can hear that the mix isn't being squashed too much, i'm happy, i may limit some elements of the mix on their individual channels, but not the master usually - is this wrong?

all this stuff confuses me! i know its dependant on many factors, but some basic direction would be priceless Macc.

assuming we're using cubase....

[macc]

Gain stage properly, treat elements correctly on an individual basis so that you don't have to resort to squashing the mix, read this thread. Clipping is generally best avoided, especially if you have heavy bass, which shows it up like little else.

[grix]

Hi Macc,

I had a little read of the first page of that thread and have a small question about fader volumes/gain structuring.

I think I am lacking in some basic knowledge of this.

If I have one solo track peaking at -6db and then I solo another track that is also -6db will the output on the master fader be -6db or something else?

As you mentioned in that other thread I do often find myself tweaking volumes on the left and in my various vst plug ins (synths, samplers etc) and then pulling my master fader down to reduce to below 0db. This brings me on to my next question: If one of my channels is slightly clipping, lets say its peaking at 3db, and then I pull the master fader down so it is below 0db, will the sound still be clipped?

Thanks

[MARCHMELLOW]

Gain stage properly, treat elements correctly on an individual basis so that you don't have to resort to squashing the mix, read this thread. Clipping is generally best avoided, especially if you have heavy bass, which shows it up like little else.

cool, wikid thread Macc, your the production forum saviour!

ok, i have a question then, i never put anything like limiters on my master, nothing at all - assume my track was 'clipping' above 0db, but i can't hear it distorting at all, and then the track needs to go to mastering... is it wrong ( and i know it is so please explain why!) to just pull the master fader down until instead of 'clipping' or going into the 'red', its now peaking at like -3db ??

as you mentioned in that other thread, if your filtering, compressing, limiting blah blah blah all your elements to try and get them to sit properly, then you have a problem, i beleieve this too, but i'm just confused as to why it is wrong to just pull your master fader down at the end of the process for the mastering engineer to do his work... i mean i haven't put anything on the master fader, and to be honest i don't compress many individual tracks either.... is it really gonna help my mix if i turn all the elements (kick, snare...) down...and not the master fader? surely the signal that will be bounced down as a wav is gonna be the same?

HELP MEEHHH!!!

[macc]

This has been covered a hundred times

There's no numerical/technical reason why you can't do as you describe. When the 32 bit output is reduced to 24 bit at the output, anything over 0 is lost. If it is under zero when it gets there, then nothing is lost

But two things should be considered when approaching it this way;

1) less major - your mix will sound different as everything isn't getting clipped and mix decisions you made may become invalid when you drop the master fader.

2) very major in the long term - you are wasting your time and mixing inefficiently. You're giving with the one hand and taking with the other. You're turning up too far on the left, and having to turn it all down on the right. You're moving your own goalposts, you're chasing your own tail etc etc etc.

Better that you can get repeatable results every time by having good working practices. Better that things you decide in the mix are the way you decided them to be, when you are finished.

Also better things are not being covered in distortion (which IS there) that may well be brought out when correcting tone and whatnot in mastering.

[MARCHMELLOW]

cool, cheers boss

i'm gonna give it a go next week, will let ya know the results!

dam your quick with your replies!

[paradigm_x]

There's no numerical/technical reason why you can't do as you describe. When the 32 bit output is reduced to 24 bit at the output, anything over 0 is lost. If it is under zero when it gets there, then nothing is lost

go on then maxx, heres a new one.

i was reading the wavelab manual and it said you should ALWAYS dither when processing, even if 16bit>16bit or whatever, as it 'upsamples' to 32bits (upbitdepths ?) to process, then back. I assume the same would apply in cubase to as internal mixer is 32 bit.

Now i know were talking ubermicro differences but what do you reckon?

cheers

[macc]

You dither when going from a higher bit depth to a lower bit depth.

The dither you mention isn't 16 bit dither, but 32-bit dither and therefore resides down in the LSB of the resulting 16 bit file. So, no big deal. All your plugins work at higher bitdepths for their processng and dither. It's going on right infront of your massive fat face the whole time

[Brisance]

I had a little read of the first page of that thread and

Read the whole thread or stfu

I mean really, the gold isn't just on the first page, but on the whole thread..

[macc]

Hi Macc,

I had a little read of the first page of that thread and have a small question about fader volumes/gain structuring.

I think I am lacking in some basic knowledge of this.

If I have one solo track peaking at -6db and then I solo another track that is also -6db will the output on the master fader be -6db or something else?

As you mentioned in that other thread I do often find myself tweaking volumes on the left and in my various vst plug ins (synths, samplers etc) and then pulling my master fader down to reduce to below 0db. This brings me on to my next question: If one of my channels is slightly clipping, lets say its peaking at 3db, and then I pull the master fader down so it is below 0db, will the sound still be clipped?

Thanks

Hi there, I missed this sorry.

All of this is answered in that thread. Read it a few times and come back if need be.

Short answer;

-6 = half the cake

2 people at -6 = no more cake.

The clipping query was answered in the post I made a little above this one

sorry to be brief... work calls

[paradigm_x]

You dither when going from a higher bit depth to a lower bit depth.

The dither you mention isn't 16 bit dither, but 32-bit dither and therefore resides down in the LSB of the resulting 16 bit file. So, no big deal. All your plugins work at higher bitdepths for their processng and dither. It's going on right infront of your massive fat face the whole time

erm.

i know when to dither traditionally skinny face, but is what the wavelab manual says wrong then? do plugins dither internally then i guess im asking. ill have to dig out the quote from the manual.

it implies you should dither when bouncing out a 24bit wav from cubase for example, as you re going from 32>24bits.

[macc]

Did you even read what I wrote?

[Sharmaji]

keep your master at zero!!!!

[paradigm_x]

Did you even read what I wrote?

yes but i didnt understand. forget it.

[macc]

Sorry man

I was just saying that it is always happening, all the time, every plugin you enable is doing it, the mix engine is doing it, everyone's at it left right and centre all the time like a big dithering orgy. But it all happens behind closed doors.

How's that for an analogy

[deadly_habit]

oh yeah and invest in MEAP

[sticky feet]

I don't even know how to mix.