Stereo Bass... Useful?

Arshaw · Post by **Arshaw** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:45 pm

ive heard many many people say that bass needs to be mono cos "the grooves dont work properly on vinyl"

but if ur tunes arent going on vinyl but on CD or just on your comp is stereo bass an option or are there other problems that can occur.

tarzan · Post by **tarzan** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:49 pm

not so much a problem, but because lower frequencies are less directional than higher frequencies, you won't really notice that it's been panned

macc · Post by **macc** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:10 pm

this Kid named Lamont wrote:ive heard many many people say that bass needs to be mono cos "the grooves dont work properly on vinyl"

but if ur tunes arent going on vinyl but on CD or just on your comp is stereo bass an option or are there other problems that can occur.

There’s a number of reasons aside from the vinyl thing that low frequencies work better in mono, even if there’s no physical reason to do so.

As stated, the ear is less directionally sensitive at low frequencies. I don’t agree that you won’t hear that it is panned, but it can lead to indistinct and muddy low end much more easily in my experience. Coupled with that is the fact that it can very easily – even on a very nice system – mean that a tune loses a sense of grounding. There’s no anchor holding the tune together. A focussed low end can enhance groove, and certainly gives a solid foundation for everything that is built on top of it. Having panned bass throws the entire balance of the mix off; having chorused low frequencies most often muddies the lows and/or causes it to pan about all over the place, undermining the solidity of the tune/mix.

There’s also some more technical reasons to bear it in mind… Many systems will sum to mono below a certain freq anyway. Then you have real problems one way or another with chorussy bass. Also it can very easily cause the stereo image to shift with the bass if/when using compression/limiting in mastering. It ties hands a great deal – running the comp/lim unlinked (dual mono) means that the overall signal is not ducked so much but the image shifts, running linked means that the other side gets ducked when your bass signal is over one side. Kind of related to that is that pushing all the low freqs, which usually have high peak levels in a mix, into one channel means that you have a disprortionate amount of signal on that side and clipping is more likely to occur. To put it another way, it’s much harder to get a tune with heavy, panning/chorused bass loud than one where the high-amplitude bass signal is shared equally between channels.

HTH

(BTW I am generally referring not to 'bass' lines where you have loads of harmonics etc that are chorused and spread about. I'm referring more to, say, a 40Hz sine wave with a stereo chorus on it)

Arshaw · Post by **Arshaw** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:54 pm

whoa... great reply man.

as you said you were prob talkin bout a sine at 40hz, what would be the threshhold frequency where it could be beneficial for stereo bass?

i was thinking of this as warrior's dance by the prodigy has a stereo saw bass on the drop... although its not exactly sub its still bass and it sounds immense.

r · Post by r » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:39 am

Tarzan wrote:not so much a problem, but because lower frequencies are less directional than higher frequencies, you won't really notice that it's been panned

proper info

subindex · Post by **subindex** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:08 am

R wrote:
Tarzan wrote:not so much a problem, but because lower frequencies are less directional than higher frequencies, you won't really notice that it's been panned
proper info

its all lies

lowpass · Post by **lowpass** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:39 am

There are plug'ins out there that will stick the bass in mono for you, I think one was called bass lane (might have done something else, not too sure)

however if you have to have your bass in stereo before you send it off to the ME make sure that it works fine in mono because there's a good chance he'll/she'll be sticking the bass in mono anyway and you don't want to be dealing with phasing issues.

1 more thing:-

does having the bass in mono = being able to push the levels higher because the stereo image is even

I'm sure that when I used to piss around with stereo imaging I couldn't push the levels as high because each side is a bit uneven and can clip easier, could someone clear this up?

glottis5 · Post by **glottis5** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:04 am

Panned bass can be really annoying on headphones. If you must so it, be subtle and tasteful.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:17 am

@ Lowpass - I answered that up there mate

Lui wrote: I always thought that retaining this left to right breathing was giving it a thicker lush hardware sound. I'm not talking about panning, just this subtle back and forth "breathing".

It's just chorus man 99%. Nothing to do with hardware or anything, it's just chorus.

The Triton tends to have this kind of dank hover sound that software doesn't, but its always been a guess on my end to keep the bass in stereo. Have I been losing quality? When I finally send some tracks your way to get mastered will I be losing out on sound? I do want to get vinyl pressed someday and I should get this straight now before I go any further. Should I re-bounce the bass as mono tracks before my final mixdown. Thanks homie, I know you pack some knowledge in the studio mastering world and would be stoked on hearing what you have to say.

What's not clear here is where the stereo movement is coming from.

Say we have a bass sound that has content all the way up, from the low sub to mids and up. This sound is monophonic, ie same in both channels.

If you straight send that (via a send) to a chorus, you will get left-right movement across all frequencies.

If you send it to a chorus but highpass the sent signal before it hits the chorus, the low lows will sit in the middle - only stuff above the cutoff will move left and right. BUT!!! there will still be some left-right movement on your meters.

So in your case you need to figure out what sort of chorus is being used, is there a HPF involved in the chorus side of things. You can see L-R movement but you can't be 100% sure (just by looking at the meters) where it is coming from. You should be able to tell by listening of course - do the low freqs sit still or not? Also looking at a correlation meter can help as mono lows will contribute strongly to positive phase correlation - which is important for vinyl considerations.

Aaaaaaaaaanyway - long story short, if you don't go completely nuts with ridiculous stereo effects on loud low end material then any ME worth his salt will be able to make it cut well, and keep the intent of what you're doing with that.

Generally, IMHO, the best approach for compatibility and for character (movement) is the the HPF chorus jobby.

HTH

trich · Post by **trich** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:45 pm

Ive also heard the fact that it wouldn't work out so well in a club, with only half the room at a time being able to get the effect.

macc · Post by **macc** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 8:52 pm

Ain't no thaaaang but a chicken wwiiang on a strriiaang.

lowpass · Post by **lowpass** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 9:29 pm

nice one macc, there was a lot to read up there I missed it on first time read

macc · Post by **macc** » Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:44 pm

I do waffle a bit, I don't need reminding

Arshaw · Post by **Arshaw** » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:51 am

hey BUMP, and cheers again for all the replies!

about that in a club that only half the room can hear it, good point

but when people talk bout phasing when stereo bass is present, do they mean it phases on vinyl?, in club? , CD?, Played in mONO? what?

what are the actual differences between vinyl and CD/Digital,

are there that many,

cheers,
lamont

Stereo Bass... Useful?

Stereo Bass... Useful?

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