Tempo illusions

hurlingdervish · Post by **hurlingdervish** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:30 pm

have you ever noticed that without the beat starting on the first beat of the measure that you can perceive it as another tempo entirely?

here is an example of the non-shifting tempo shift harsh transition
http://www.box.net/shared/l1e7m3f23b

and the same loop with a reference point of the kick beneath it
http://www.box.net/shared/bdoatgi7mz

i used to notice this as a kid alot id be tapping my foot or whatever then when the beat comes in i was completely wrong, and was actually doing triplets or just on the offbeat or something.

paradigm_x · Post by **paradigm_x** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:33 pm

this tune is a perfect example of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHH-ex99Xys

macc · Post by **macc** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:11 pm

Tony Williams or stfu

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:53 pm

^ actually i'd throw in billy cobham before tony

not so much a shitfting tempo as shifting points-of-reference in rhythm; basically, the western ear is a seriously goddamn lazy instrument.

for some serious, serious WTF-where's-the-1 moments, check out anything salsa w/ a 2-3 clave. Eddie Palmieri's recent work is just stunning, and of course there's always tito and machito.

ketamine · Post by **ketamine** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:10 pm

Good luck finding the tempo of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmXqD6sqgZg

Massive tune tho

macc · Post by **macc** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:22 pm

TeReKeTe wrote:^ actually i'd throw in billy cobham before tony

But Tony Williams begat Billy Cobham

Ergo

Tony Williams or stfu

(I love BC but TW is the one for me

)

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:31 pm

my favorite (and perhaps unsprisingly, only) tony williams story:

I went to see tony @ the blue note when i was 17. being that i was underage, my mom had to accompany (very hip mom, what can i say). mindblowing. afterwards, i went up stairs to use the facilities and found myself taking a leak inbetween Itzhak Perleman and Tony Williams. They both lean back and are like "Mr. Perleman! Mr. Williams! Lovely to see you!"

and i'm all HOLY SHIT

so really? Tony over elvin, even? Don't get me wrong i love tony's playing and I was surprisingly heartbroken when he left us-- i just find myself reaching for other people's playing more often.

tomato/tomahto

macc · Post by **macc** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:57 pm

TeReKeTe wrote:i went up stairs to use the facilities and found myself taking a leak inbetween Itzhak Perleman and Tony Williams. They both lean back and are like "Mr. Perleman! Mr. Williams! Lovely to see you!"

and i'm all HOLY SHIT

Amazing. I probably would have REALLY embarrassed myself

so really? Tony over elvin, even?

Nope. AND Elvin

My personal holy trinity of jazz drumming:

Tony Williams
Elvin Jones
Joe Chambers

Williams for that shit he was doing with the half/third time stuff and general explosiveness. Elvin for incredible layering, also explosiveness

and obviously cos he sounds like he's going to completely fall off any second but he's actually deeper in the pocket than ANYbody

Joe Chambers for absolute directness, no frills, very up-front direct feel, he's like the drum n bass drummer's jazz drummer. I LOVE Joe Chambers soooooooo much - also the others but he never gets the kudos so I have to say it

All of them have a totally different swing, even just a straight swing on a ride and I could pick them, no problem.

Top tracks:

TW: Frelon Brun (IMHO the finest single drum take of all time. He practically invents, starts, ends and completely wins jazz-funk drumming in one recording. I dunno why anyone bothered after this), Grachan Moncur III's Air Raid, all of Out To Lunch, that live in Europe in Antibes 1964 version of Milestones at 8billion bpm... on and on...

EJ: Andrew Hill's Siete Ocho (also one of my fave tunes evevevevevever) - 7/8 time and BANGING.... in fact this one probably exemplifies Elvin to me as well as anything

JC: Wayne Shorter's The All-Seeing Eye, Joe Henderson's Caribbean Fire Dance - he doesn't do much and then BANG! Those drums in that solo, I swear they are the biggest thing I have ever heard.

Don't get me wrong i love tony's playing and I was surprisingly heartbroken when he left us-- i just find myself reaching for other people's playing more often.

1963 - 1968, waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy above everything else. He was doing some OTHER shit then man, seriously, some other shit. Then he went a bit different, more... normal drumming later on. By the time they did that VSOP thing he was a totally different drummer. On Jackie McLean's One Step Beyond he's just some fiery kid just kiiiiiiiillllllllling it, that whole time he was doing shit nobody had ever heard.

tomato/tomahto

Let's call the whole thing oooofff

(sorry waffling... I love my jazz!!)

karmacazee · Post by **karmacazee** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:23 pm

Check out Piano Phase by Steve Reich. Now that's some srious

A cool video for a performance of it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkQADgfvlZo

Two pianists start playing the exact same 12 note progression, and after a while one of them starts speeding up. They obviously go out of phase with each other, but eventually they resync every now and again.

Does crazy things to your brain when you're listening.

karmacazee · Post by **karmacazee** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:29 pm

Paradigm X wrote:this tune is a perfect example of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHH-ex99Xys

That sample at the start of that is Tuvan throat singing isn't it?

hurlingdervish · Post by **hurlingdervish** » Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:00 pm

Karmacazee wrote:
Paradigm X wrote:this tune is a perfect example of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHH-ex99Xys
That sample at the start of that is Tuvan throat singing isn't it?

no its a synth with a comb filter

same thing really

skape · Post by **skape** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:51 pm

Paradigm X wrote:this tune is a perfect example of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHH-ex99Xys

You do realize that beat is not 4/4 though?

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:42 pm

Glad someone bumped this.... TeReKeTe - let's talk jazz motherfucker!

abZ · Post by **abZ** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:07 pm

Alright talk jazz I am listening. I love Jazz because it's over my head for the most part. Instead of hearing it and constantly analyzing each detail, I just listen and enjoy for what it is. One of my faves is Bill Evans. The drums are always amazing on his stuff and I am told he always used no name drummer on his stuff?

macc · Post by **macc** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:27 pm

What? Paul Motian? No name??

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:53 pm

i must admit i do like a certain weather report record as well.

otheriwse for the longest time i was really, really into Art Blakey. bababdum bababadum bababadum (snare/tom/floor, repeat, thankyoucomeagain). huge pocket. toed the line between just groove and actual bop.

I was lucky enough to see Billy Higgins a few times before he passed; very few musicians pass on joy at that level.

Otherwise i realized long ago that playing jazz wasn't my forte-- i'm far into micro AND macro structure. I do enjoy a good swing around the 12", tho. cornbread, anyone?

abZ · Post by **abZ** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:55 pm

Macc wrote:What? Paul Motian? No name??

I don't know who that is. I assume he was a drummer for Bill Evans? That was just something I was told. Either way brilliant drumming imo.

negativland · Post by **negativland** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:25 pm

Paradigm X wrote:this tune is a perfect example of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHH-ex99Xys

hehe "Delay Lama" is Calling, great tune

paradigm_x · Post by **paradigm_x** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:59 pm

Skape wrote:
Paradigm X wrote:this tune is a perfect example of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHH-ex99Xys
You do realize that beat is not 4/4 though?

im not 100% but 95% sure its 4/4. when the beat kicks in.

its 4/4 with a non 4/4 synth line. snares on the 2s and 4s?

what do you reckon it is ?

cloak and dagger · Post by **cloak and dagger** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:29 pm

If you mean your brain thinking the beat starts at a different point than it does, this happens to me all the time in techno or other 4/4 polyrhythmic stuff when I start listening from the breakdown before the beat kicks in.

It also always happened to me with Konflict's "Maelstrom," since it drops out of silence, but the first beat is like 1/8 or 1/16 before the beginning of the bar (can't remember which), so my brain would always automatically think that was the where it was supposed to start from...man that annoyed me!

Tempo illusions

Tempo illusions

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