Pitchfork July featuring...

[blackdown]

late 80's NY house is so close to the beginning stages of UK funky that its not funny. i'm not saying that people copied people, but i could show you many tunes from 1989-1990 that could be played on any of the rinse funky slots and you'd have no idea it was 20 years ago.

it's so close to the beginnings and end of uk garage it's not true either.

what's interesting is while there are house purists in funky who know their history, the long history of house music, i get the sense from talking to several of the funky produders, that others are making funky *without* the detailed history of house, which itself is really interesting because this is often when people are uninhibited as to what as musical style 'is' or 'should be'.

[iron myke]

late 80's NY house is so close to the beginning stages of UK funky that its not funny. i'm not saying that people copied people, but i could show you many tunes from 1989-1990 that could be played on any of the rinse funky slots and you'd have no idea it was 20 years ago.

Off on a tangent here, but a similar thing has been happening with the Jungle Techno revival through labels such as J-Tek, one could get away with doing the same thing.

[gettingcolder]

As for "the split" and its history, I was musing a lot about it last Christmas and here are some thoughts from the German perspective:

To put it very crudely, I felt that the first split was between prole vs. aesthete (Rusko vs. Martyn) and I would claim that a main force driving this split was 'a will to class distinction', very much fueled by upper music journalism in Germany. They felt that Martyn et.al. where acceptable dubstep. Sadly, it also seemed as if more and more producers were getting scared of sounding too prole, so there was an increasing trend towards sophistication. There's nothing wrong with sophistication of course, but if its mainly reactive and defensive the music loses its crazy, stubborn, idiosyncratic force.
(To put my cards on the table: my reference point for what I would term 'sonic freedom' is Loefah, Mala, Kryptic Minds.)

I also miss the innovative, free spirit in funky and also chip tune, because it sounds too familiar from the 80s and 90s - I agree with Seckle

late 80's NY house is so close to the beginning stages of UK funky that its not funny. i'm not saying that people copied people, but i could show you many tunes from 1989-1990 that could be played on any of the rinse funky slots and you'd have no idea it was 20 years ago.

[♫♪♫]

[Sharmaji]

for the quick fix.

..smash smash smash.

i hate smash smash smash.

everyone loves smash smash smash. i'm just saying, a little more mystery and dynamics with the smash. the unexpected wins everytime.

Personally I'm a fan of the smash smash roller wtf is that? Anaconda? Christ. Smash dubber roller blend, which I think puts me squarely in the majority. I mean, even rusko's got "love is real" and jahova.

It is a bit weird in that the huge range of 140 sounds hasn't dissipated at all... It just feels like it, I guess? From a time when you could mix indian stomp into left leg out.

It could also be that were all old in this thread.

[bandshell]

I'm not old, I'm 18 and got into dubstep in spring 2008.

[bunzer0]

but I don't know how well house fits into the 'nuum'.

well before hardcore u had the Acid Hosue revolution in the UK around 1988 if am not wrong...
Thinking about dj's like Laurent Garnier, Hacienda resident in Manchester, people like Andrew Weatherall, or even Jack Dangers from Meat Beat Manifesto and his anthem called Radio Babylon.
So ofc House is origin of the nuum

[wheelchairprince]

but I don't know how well house fits into the 'nuum'.

well before hardcore u had the Acid Hosue revolution in the UK around 1988 if am not wrong...
Thinking about dj's like Laurent Garnier, Hacienda resident in Manchester, people like Andrew Weatherall, or even Jack Dangers from Meat Beat Manifesto and his anthem called Radio Babylon.
So ofc House is origin of the nuum

Yeah but it just seems overlooked at times, I mean its the basis for garage anyway but everything I've read about the 'nuum' seems to start with hardcore as if it appeared sans precendent.

late 80's NY house is so close to the beginning stages of UK funky that its not funny. i'm not saying that people copied people, but i could show you many tunes from 1989-1990 that could be played on any of the rinse funky slots and you'd have no idea it was 20 years ago.

What like? I'd be very interested.

[bunzer0]

Yeah but it just seems overlooked at times, I mean its the basis for garage anyway but everything I've read about the 'nuum' seems to start with hardcore as if it appeared sans precendent.

it can't be "sans precendent"...
everything is coming from somewhere

[pearsall]

late 80's NY house is so close to the beginning stages of UK funky that its not funny. i'm not saying that people copied people, but i could show you many tunes from 1989-1990 that could be played on any of the rinse funky slots and you'd have no idea it was 20 years ago.

What like? I'd be very interested.

for one, a lot of Todd Terry's stuff from that era has that super-percussive feel to it (check the Todd Terry Trilogy compo for an overview of the stuff he was doing then)

[surface_tension]

Yes! That's it for me too, and part of the reason why the influence of funky has been so refreshing. Because it's about tunes that roll thru and you can get lost in them and they're for dancing, rather than just waiting for the next big drop. Too many dubstep DJ's are intoxicated by the adoration of a crowd when it reacts to a monster drop, and so rather than doing their jobs and building a set and making people dance they go for the quick fix.

I agree with this for the most part, been saying it for years tbh. However, I disagree that Funky is the way forward. I guess that is because I grew up with house music and techno being shoved down my throat... not that I didn't want to eat them-they are yummy. I just don't think that "funky" is making any vast improvement upon a pre-existing genre, or defined enough to be considered it's own. For the most part I find it to be like House that doesn't have nearly enough funk in it. Not possessing the soul that my brain tells me should be there after years of listening to House music. Maybe I'm just not ready for it, it's too advanced for me to understand...

Some of the stuff I have heard has been great, but like most other genres it's 1 tune out of 10. I guess it's just when I hear that the "new big thing that's going to dig music out of the shitter" comes along, I expect it to be something it's not.

I agree, it's always been about dancing for me. Long, smooth techno style mixes... always, even with Dubstep... it's never been about the drop for me. I guess that I require more than being able to dance to it. Just doesn't have the emotional connection for me if that makes sense. Glad people are feelin it. Like I said I've heard some good tunes, but a lot of them sound like slightly less trancey progressive house.

[drewlustman]

for me martin has not said anything controversial. london culture and london producers continue to be the epicenter of the sound's forward progress. considering the exploding popularity of dubstep worldwide, the best producers outside the UK are still taking their cues from london.

sorta true, not necessarily in terms of hip hop tho.

edit: I have not read past the fourth or fifth reply in this thread, I just jump at any chance to bust DQ's balls...

[selrahc]

nice to see a thread like this, good read. what i find ironic is that whilst some would say that one of the factors that has turned dubstep into a plodding, turgid synth metal mess is newcomers from dnb who don't understand the heritage, the most interesting UK funky producers are the ones who throw any reverence for house's history in the bin and start again with a grime/garage template.

the time from genre inception to the point where those that were there at the start begin to decide they're fed up with it, seems to be getting shorter. about 4 years for dubstep, but circle et al seem to already be getting fucked off with lil silva etc (which to me is the more interesting end of the UK funky spectrum).

EDIT: just saw this in the loefah - boiler suit thread:

Any chance anyone has got audio of this?

http://www.getdarker.com/files/6f14c184 ... 4d034ed46/

and spongebob sounds oddly refined compared to a lot of the turbocharged aggro shite that gets spammed about on here.

EDIT 2: ironically, i think one of the problems is how easy it is to set up a net label. i don't have decks (or money for vinyl) at uni, so rely on digi releases to be able to listen to new stuff, but ironically the ease with which you can put out a tune has completely compromised any sort of quality control within the sound.

i don't want to see a return to the days of 05 by any means, i like the fact that tunes i like come out in digi on boomkat etc every month, but it is lamentable how many different digi-only labels exist only to put out EPs of no-name artists producing the same "kick-hat-snare-hat and a big wobbling guitar noise" crap.

literally every second thread in this forum is "HEY CHECK OUT MY NEW RELEASE ITS SOOO FILTHY LITERALLY IT GOES GRIND GRIND GRIND A WHOLE LOT". since when was the point of dubstep to simply make the loudest atonal screeching sound possible? i've got about 40 hardcore (as in punk) albums that do that far better. dubstep is supposed to be dance music, but the dance aspect is being stripped out completely.

in a way, i guess a lot of these labels have to churn out tunes, because to play a 1 hour set of them you'd need about 120 different songs - once you've played the drop it's time to cue up the next screaming, wailing behemoth. if you like noise that much, get a baby, or a howler monkey.

ok, rant over.

[bassbeyondreason]

The perverted side of me that loves grindcore, harsh noise and schranz really wants to like the primitive functional metalstep, but god, it's just so...shite, isn't it?

Anyway, back to the enlightened debate, you lot.

[kknpip]

I think the drug things big - if people are bringing harder substances into clubs they're gonna need something to anchor them, so you get this return to d'n'b 'clownstep' wobble and jump up thugstep. It's familiar, and in some ways that's good, but it's also pretty patronising when it's just smack down drop after smack down drop - it doesn't credit the listener with any curiosity, intelligence or patience.

I really like the idea of post-generic music, in all fields not just dubstep - music that's freed a bit from the pressures of being local or representing a time and a place (by the internet I guess) and can play off things from all over and all time. The reason I think there's so much exciting stuff coming out of the House, Future Garage, Dubstep blending is because there's always an underlying feeling that you've been here before - it isn't emerging out of the end of the nuum in a linear way, but it's plucking elements from different parts, exploring sonic possibilities that have been neglected in the past because of that previous rush to push the sound lengthways through the years. Now people are taking things deeper, going back 'cause the past sounds are more readily available (net again) and you can hear that in the sound - I can hear it mostly in the 'feminine pressure', that anonymous wailing diva that seems to have been the same girl, forever. Seems like things are going forward, every week, and it's ridiculously exciting - but at the same time the past's there, and my favourite tunes at the minute ('To London', 'Hyph Mango', 'J&W Beat', 'No More Tears' et cetera) all have that tug between the future and the past.

It's a bit like wearing a pair of those 3D glasses and one the blue eye shows you the history and the red eye shows you the past and you get a fuller, fucked up picture.

[drew]

It saddens me that everyone's answer to fix whats wrong with dubstep is to jump ship and dive straight into.... house music?

I feel the same way as surface tension. I grew up in Chicago where house music was an everyday thing. I have a big collection of old mixtapes and wbmx recordings of the early 80s sound that Ron Hardy, The Hot Mix 5, Adonis etc. all championed. It extremely exciting music, and it broke so many barriers and paved the way forward. 20 years ago.

I guess it makes sense though, it goes with a theory I have that all trends cycle in 20 years. Looking on to the next decade coming up soon, we are probably looking at the rebirth of rave culture. House music was backbone of that movement.

The thing to me is, while everyone else in the world during this decade was so focused on reinventing the 80's, dubstep was the most refreshing to happen to me (possibly ever in my life). It shaped a new direction completely and has continued to mutate and change in many different directions. I understand everyone may not feel like its a good thing, and for all of you who miss the dubstep of 2005-2006, maybe 'funky' is your solution. I cant argue with you for that. Perhaps you enjoy music better when its your private niche and its no longer cool that everyone else seems to be getting into it. Thats cool too.

It hasn't moved me that way. It wont prevent me from going out to a show of funky house, and it wont prevent me from enjoying the music. I just cant see myself personally getting involved. Dubstep is still fresh to me, and I feel like it hasn't even reached all of its potential. Rather then abandon it for its faults, Id rather guide people towards what's right. There are many people discovering dubstep still and I plan to continue my role in working with them to ensure its presented the right way.

I've always preached that the strength in dubstep is that its built by people who have seen music genres rise and fall. That everyone was working together to protect it from falling apart. Maybe its impossible to control. Maybe its inevitable that all music comes and goes. Im still working on keeping it on track.

Lets keep pushing things FWD

[reptilian]

and spongebob sounds oddly refined compared to a lot of the turbocharged aggro shite that gets spammed about on here.

spongebob is a great tune

[dq]

Rather then abandon it for its faults, Id rather guide people towards what's right. There are many people discovering dubstep still and I plan to continue my role in working with them to ensure its presented the right way.

I'm not talking about abandoning it. It's precisely because it means so much to me that I think it needs to be saved from itself, and the producers who are inspired by funky, wonky, techno, house, whatever are the people who for me are staying true to what made dubstep exciting in the first place because they are daring to experiment with unexpected sounds/textures/tempos/etc. What Untold, Ramadanman, LV, Shortstuff, Geiom, Brackles just to name a few have done has given me renewed excitement in dubstep just when it seemed to be headed down a hopeless dead end. So it's not really about ditching dubstep for funky, but rather feeling like the emergence of funky has opened up new possibilites for dubstep that have made it better.

[wajad]

really interesting thread. i'm a sucker for self-analysis

just from a personal standpoint, i'm really glad to see funky getting more attention. my favourite hardcore and jungle tunes were the ones with female vocals and synth stabs. to me, the so-called 'feminine pressure' is the thing that really ties the music to ecstasy and the early 90's raves-- losing your shit to banging 909s and hoovers and then out of the clouds of heavy hardcore comes a silky female vocal line and a cheesy, uplifting synth line consisting of transposed chords. same with jungle in its early days-- dj's were comfortable spinning ruff ragga bangers with soulful and smooth vocal tunes. and with hardcore it was often going back and forth between rugged and smooth inside a single tune. just listen to any of the old tunes by rufige cru/manix/nookie/etc and you hear so many different aesthetics all crammed into one track.

so why do i only hear hard and rough music when i go to dubstep nights? why not throw in a vocal tune to add some flavour? the oldskool boys did it with no problem. i think that what the heavy-wobble dubstep dj's may be forgetting is that sense of mdma-fueled emotional elevation, the uplifting element of raves. it's fine to rave your tits off to heavy bangers for a while, but the heart of rave music is ecstasy (both the emotion and the drug). so when i hear a tune like 'been here before' like zed bias, and i hear that descending organ bassline drop and the diva vocal sample on top of it, i'm instantly jettisoned back in time to a warehouse in 1991. and as for 'hyph mngo', that track gives me the same feeling.

[kuma]

One door closes, another opens to the dance floor.