Addd]ing warmth to drum tracks

[rob sparx]

Why does it have to be anywhere near clipping?

You know how I work Macc for certain tunes I keep everything loud so that when a frequency steps out of line I can hear digital distortion and know somethings not right which doesn't happen when your working at a quieter volume, same as your stressing the mix technique. I do all my final mixdowns at -6 like you recommended and for many tunes I work with peaks around -6 but use a limiter on the master volume until the premaster recording. As you know when you've got a good mixdown there really is very little difference in sound between the quiet mix (and amp volume wacked up) and clipped/limited mix (amp volume down) but when you've got a dodgy mix the sound can sometimes audiably clip at anything over 0db - mine will usually go up to +6db before you can actually hear any clipping.

Lets not open this can of worms again though we've had this discussion b4 and theres a million threads already on this topic lol

[lowpass]

@Rob when you say you would choose automation of the volume over sidechaining. Did you really mean what you said about it being easier? because imo it would be more of a hassle but useful due to it sounding more natural compared to compressing?

I just bounce down to an audio channel and do a quick volume fade easy to do in cubase much easier than setting up group channels for sidechaining it does sound slightly different to compressing the sound to make it quieter its a bit cleaner I often use that technique on the bass as well

Ah k, I remember trying cubase for a time and I remember it being a bitch to faff around with auxes and whatnot, I will try the automating volume at some point, I guess if your copying and pasting the automation it can be done fairly quick,

also waiting to get some money through before I get ninja scrolls on vinyl, love that tune

[the dub lemon]

So who understood it right, you or me?:)

Me apparently

Actually, no.

Erm...please see Lowpass's response below...that is exactly what I said I thought he had said, thank you very much

At controversy was Mr. Sparx's suggestion of sidechaining the kick and snare. It was to this that Mrs. Serox was responding.

Well Lowpass made a suggestion of sidechain the kick and snare to the percussion, Serox misunderstood it thinking that he was saying sidechain the kick to the snare which cause Rob to say why you might do this. I then simply pointed out that all this stemmed from Serox's misunderstanding...so the result of the question serox asked which was "who had understood what lowpass had actually meant" lowpass's answer was me. I'm not debate the whole discussion which happended in between with Rob...it's a perfectly valid discussion but it was not what Lowpass's original post which stemmed it all was about.

[reignstep]

How about equalizing your drums

Boost your kickdrum around 50Hz to thicken the bass sound and cut it off , usually at around 300Hz there's an annoying tone in most of the kickdrums

Snare: use a nice reverb setting of your own choice, there's many different settings that go well on a snare

Hi-Hats: Cut everything under 600Hz and boost a little bit around 10kHz

Percussion: Some delay and cut around the 1-2kHz range for some smooth sounding in the rest of your percussion


There, I hope that helps

[macc]

You know how I work Macc for certain tunes I keep everything loud so that when a frequency steps out of line I can hear digital distortion and know somethings not right which doesn't happen when your working at a quieter volume, same as your stressing the mix technique. I do all my final mixdowns at -6 like you recommended and for many tunes I work with peaks around -6 but use a limiter on the master volume until the premaster recording. As you know when you've got a good mixdown there really is very little difference in sound between the quiet mix (and amp volume wacked up) and clipped/limited mix (amp volume down) but when you've got a dodgy mix the sound can sometimes audiably clip at anything over 0db - mine will usually go up to +6db before you can actually hear any clipping.

Excellent post.

It's a good way to work when you know what you're doing - though it's perhaps a little personal and it is definitely rather advanced for (with all due respect) a lot of the other engineers on here. I know how that sounds, sorry peeps. But it's definitely important to really and truly understand (not just know) how and why you're using 0dB in that way, and that takes experience which Rob obviously has.

FWIW I always kept * things low and used the 'super massive ridiculous compressor' job to check anything like that, stuff poking out etc, but it amounts to the same thing really. Lots of roads lead to Rome! Hope you get where I'm coming from Rob!






* just realised I said that in the past tense.... it's been soooo long since I built a mix!

[lowpass]

Macc is your post related to float point's in daw's headroom in any way? or is what you and rob talking about to do with monitoring the overall level of the track to make it easier to hear when something oversteps it's volume you want it at?

[macc]

It's a bit OT really and I am sort of hesitant to get into it... but

Rob understands that when you have the right overall balance then things sound clean almost regardless of how you push them. By pushing things to near breaking point, if something pokes out, you'll know about it. This is something that's easy to read and 'know', but takes a LONG time to understand on a deeper intuitive level and implement in a way that is beneficial to the mix quality and not just for 'making it loud'. This is really hard to put into words btw.

I understand what Rob's doing - and as he says, he doesn't do it all the time - but you know how internet boards go... people start running their tunes hot 'cos that what Rob Sparx does and his tunes are fat'. That's why I'm hesitant to recommend it as a general way to mix. You can get the best of both worlds and run no risk of ruining things if you pop a plug on the out and clobber it (at unity gain of course) to check, then turn it off and return to a good gain structure as per that other thread.

I'm not a conservative bloke generally, I drink like a motherfucker and I drum like a nutcase. I love running tubes hotter than I should and pushing transformers further than they're meant to go (when appropriate anyway). But digital IS NOT ANALOGUE and it definitely pays, in the final analysis, to keep it conservative.

The floating point thing is kind of relevant by the way, but not entirely - it fits under the general 'digital works best under 0dB' thing.

Sorry for the waffle...

[lowpass]

Cool yeah I would prefer to go for that 2nd option, So I would stick a maximizer or what not on the master bus then push that to where it's clipping then back off a little till its clean? then listen to the song start to finish and if anything pushes it into the red then I can either

compress
turn down level
eq

that individual part to make it sit better?

[serox]

Sorry for the misunderstandings! we got there in the end thanks for your patients.

[macc]

This is a very long way off topic

Basically spank your track RIDICULOUSLY hard but be sure to do it at unity gain. If something is misbehaving you'll know about it (though it takes a bit of practice to get used to hearing your mix that way). I use a specific UAD LA2A setting for this - I prefer a longer release time to avoid the distortion, whereas Rob seems to work based around it (fascinating stuff ).

Anyway that's pretty much the overriding principle here - how your mix holds up under pressure tells you a lot about how good it is. If it sounds massively different when you spank it, it needs work.

[serox]

I often push mine close to the red to test things and see if anything stands out too hard. I will burn a track and then mix it with another record at the same volumn to try match things.

[legend4ry]

and the award for the thread to go must off topic goes to..

[serox]

Is this technique similar to mixing into a compressor? or am i barking up the wrong gain tree.

I understand the techniques that Rob and Macc are describing, but i think i would find it hard to use it this way. Recently I have grown verrrry cautious of levels and will mix at very low levels. Once i start a project i turn every fader down -6 to -8db to avoid any clipping. Is this actually doing more harm than good?? ie fader resolution, unity gain etc...

I only started doing it at high levels becuase I was use to mixing records at that volumn and could without pissing people off. I was so use to doing it at these levels I could spot if something was too loud or too quiet. Mixing at low volumns I find it much harder. If I was to send something to be mastered I would bring it all down for them.

One of my mates who comes over to mix finds it really hard loud so everyone is different and works in different ways.

[serox]

Im not saying i have a problem getting my tracks loud. I do that after the initial bounce and do a self master and push the levels until im happy its not degrading my sound.

I know:)

Was just saying why I used a similar technique to what Rob does.

[macc]

Is this technique similar to mixing into a compressor? or am i barking up the wrong gain tree.

No, totally different. It's putting your mix under extreme pressure to see how it holds up. No gentle gluing here

I understand the techniques that Rob and Macc are describing, but i think i would find it hard to use it this way. Recently I have grown verrrry cautious of levels and will mix at very low levels. Once i start a project i turn every fader down -6 to -8db to avoid any clipping. Is this actually doing more harm than good?? ie fader resolution, unity gain etc...

Fader resolution is purely a GUI thing, nothing to do with sonics. But why turn the faders down - why not get the sound source at the right level, right from the very beginning? Then the tune mixes itself (kind of, you know what I mean). Then you get the best fader resolution.

Might have to staart another thread to put this all together, this thread is a proper interwoven load of stuff that's all only vaguely related

[JFK]

and the award for the thread to go must off topic goes to..

Good discussion though!! Its got all the way to three pages and no one has insulted anyones mother yet, that in itself must be some kind of record lol.

[macc]

Its got all the way to three pages and no one has insulted anyones mother yet, that in itself must be some kind of record lol.

your mum

[JFK]

Its got all the way to three pages and no one has insulted anyones mother yet, that in itself must be some kind of record lol.

your mum

oh well...... it was nice while it lasted.