Why D&B? Broken Beat & Dubstep make better bedfellow

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narcossist
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Post by narcossist » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:29 pm

Blackdown wrote:
narcossist wrote:It's a bit much imo to expect everyone coming through to find their own culture specific take on dubstep esp if their surroundings feature no particular culture of note.
i dont think this is too much to ask, i have a lot of faith in dubstep and have seen too many amazing producers come through, to ascribe to the view that we should all give up trying to be original and find new ways and just settle for the same few styles.
I don't think its right to give up on the idea of being original, what i was trying to say was that to produce a track which flatly ignores all the previous innovations of dubstep - purely for the sake of avoiding any form of similarity with other producers - is effectively putting an obstacle in the way of creativity. By realising certain concepts work well gives a producer a head start in further innovation, its up to their discretion to determine what works for them then attempt to take things further.

El-B said on his recent breezeblock appearence that he wanted to take dillinja's dark aesthetic into the garage template. His tracks are percieved as seminal. If a dubstep producer were to take several already existing strategies [from whichever genres] and arrange them in a new way would that not be just as innovative? Or is innovation measured by the level of obscurity from which ideas are sourced rather than their application?

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Post by blackdown » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:44 pm

narcossist wrote:I don't think its right to give up on the idea of being original, what i was trying to say was that to produce a track which flatly ignores all the previous innovations of dubstep - purely for the sake of avoiding any form of similarity with other producers - is effectively putting an obstacle in the way of creativity.
this isn't what i said. i was warning against the pointlessness of making similar known mistakes that other genres had made, not of producers ignoring previous dubstep innovations.

i have no interest in putting obstacles in the way of creativity, but i would love to see people avoid futility.

narcossist wrote:If a dubstep producer were to take several already existing strategies [from whichever genres] and arrange them in a new way would that not be just as innovative? Or is innovation measured by the level of obscurity from which ideas are sourced rather than their application?
now you're just being silly. obscurity isnt a measure of anything. think of the tens of thousands of obscure "jazz-y" samples that could be arranged in a cliched way.

but there's value in your point about strategies. look at London Electricity's clean house influenced tracks versus Mala's dark house influence. The same influence is used to very different effect and merit.

so what you use is less important than how you use it, which is back to my original point that going token "jazz-y" is far less interesting than (for example) perhaps learning from jazz and applying it to dubstep or using jazz samples (there's over a century to draw from!) in a dubstep way.
Keysound Recordings, Rinse FM, http://www.blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com, sub, edge, bars, groove, swing...

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owengriffiths
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Post by owengriffiths » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:34 pm

When I've been trying to turn new people on to this sound I tell them, "this is the cutting edge of music right now". Fucked up Electronica aside (where the experimentalism is just in your face noise, and by this I mean the extreme elements of that sound; there are good sdes to it too of course), dubstep is pretty experimental. But I don't lie to these people, because I conclude my statement with "but who knows, in 5 years time they might be just as stuck in a dead end as all the other styles". Cause at the moment, there are certain problems which are stifling creativity, the reliance on half step being the most obvious one.

And this whole confidence about doing something new, hasn't every music scene said this to journalists at some point? Blackdown is probably in a better position than most to elaborate on this and explain why Dubstep's claims of originailty (at the moment) are so valid.

And can someone please answer me this. I have being buying garage vinyl since around 00/01 and as you can suspect, I focused on the bassline styles. Living where I did/do, there was no chance for me to hear this kind of music in a club. But every 4 months or so I would be down blackmarket and I would be buying Deuce magazine when it came out (Thank fuck for HMV/Virigin being centralised organisations with no clue about areas differences!), so it wasn't as if I was completely isolated from the scene...

BUT AT WHAT POINT DID SUB BASS BECOME THE DOMINATING FEATURE IN DUBSTEP?...

because it is only relatively recently that I have been hearing about this obsession. In fact, the first people I heard talking about this kind of stuff was Jon E Cash in Deuce mag, and that was years ago.

Reading the recent article about Dubstep in Sunday Times (if you want a copy I could send this to you as a jpeg file, people), there was part in it when the journalist said, (words to the effect of) "as the name suggests, [dubstep] is really just a modern deriviation of old Jamaican Dub Reggae".

And I thought, What the fuck, imagine saying this to the likes of Oris Jay two years ago. But now this argument is becoming slightly valid, and so my worry is that what if all the producers get it into their head that this is what dubstep is all about, therefore stifling any meaningful experimentation in the future.

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batfink
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Post by batfink » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:47 pm

maybe i've misunderstood you but i don't think subsonics will ever prove a limitation....

and the sunday times comment just sounds badly worded. it does have some of the hallmarks of the reggae culture .. dubplates, bass, soundsystems etc albeit without always sounding like reggae/dub.
is it?

NO.

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Post by forensix (mcr) » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:17 pm

owengriffiths wrote:
BUT AT WHAT POINT DID SUB BASS BECOME THE DOMINATING FEATURE IN DUBSTEP?...
13 May 2005 11:35 am

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Post by ramadanman » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:15 pm

forensix (mcr) wrote:
owengriffiths wrote:
BUT AT WHAT POINT DID SUB BASS BECOME THE DOMINATING FEATURE IN DUBSTEP?...
13 May 2005 11:35 am
I think you'll find it was actually the 14th :roll:

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juliun_c90
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Post by juliun_c90 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:35 pm

forensix (mcr) wrote:
owengriffiths wrote:
BUT AT WHAT POINT DID SUB BASS BECOME THE DOMINATING FEATURE IN DUBSTEP?...
13 May 2005 11:35 am
at what point did questions become the dominant feature of this forum

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

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Post by shonky » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:44 pm

juliun_c90 wrote: at what point did questions become the dominant feature of this forum

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
Yeah, I miss the days when every post started with an answer and then everyone could bring in more questions about said proposition before wittling the original answerer to tears. It seemed cruel, but was it?:o

Maybe we should take a more zen approach and give vaguely mystical answers and then everyone can stroke their chins and go "ahhhh" knowingly.

Also what's the point in reading a blog that's less well-informed than this forum?
Hmm....

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clarkycatdealer
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Post by clarkycatdealer » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:01 pm

well pretty much everything within the hardcore 'nuum has a pretty heavy emphasis on sub-bass, its not as if any one producer just woke up and thought it would be a good idea. Its more to do with the minimalism of the beats , which leave more space open for big bass sounds.

Also the claim that "fucked up electronica" is the most cutting edge music is laughable, glitch/noise/breakcore/ironic business has been done to death for over a decade, its clearly completely past the point of being relevant if even warp records have ceased to have much interest in it. Frankly i find hot chip more cutting edge than squarepusher and his legions of spastic imitators. anyway the glitchy paroxysms are soporific as they mollify any inherent groove to such an extent that there is quite often nothing left.

also this statement is quite rebarbative: "they just seem like such proffessionals. They're the antithesis of someone making something on a playstation in 10 minutes over a cup of tea and a spliff."

so what if they are pros?? the early grime stuff done by wiley on basic gear was infinitley more groundbreaking than this nujazz tripe. limited equipment and lack of industry standard knowledge often leads to increased creativity.

:roll:

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seckle
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Post by seckle » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:04 pm

TRG wrote:it's all about just switching from one vibe to another and enjoying good music.
this is what appealed to me bout jungle back in the days, before it got so boxed up in rules, like "you can't play liquid and dark in the same set" and all that bullshit.
i have dnb dj friends that say things like " thats a sick tune, but i could never spin that out in my set.". why ffs? in dnb you have dj's scared to play tunes because of the rules. they're so fucking preoccupied with making sure they have one hour of perfect blends and samey bpm's, that they miss the point entirely.
this is why broken and dubstep work well together, because of the unexpected patterns and soundclashes. a tune like artwork - red- or burial -you hurt me- could easily be a part of the broken set, and no one would tell the difference between genres except for the tunespotters.

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thinking
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Post by thinking » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:11 pm

BLACK BOX & BOX CLEVER

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paulie wrote:Thinking >>>> everyone else on this forum.

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crazydave
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Post by crazydave » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:24 pm

Big Up on the samples, ThinKing!

FYI, Broken Beat is my 2nd favourite genre currently being released...
I don't know about a golden era, maybe I was a latecomer, but it seems far from dead to me. Some of my favourite albums:

Mark de Clive-Lowe - Tide's Arising
DKD - Future Rage
Phuturistix - Feel It Out
Domu - Return of the Rogue
Jazztronik - Samurai


BB is all about the rhythm, that infectious wonky vibe people mentioned, normally with a backdrop of soul. "Nu Jazz" (despite a lot of crossover, they're not the same) covers pretty much everything where Electronica and Jazz meet. The broken rhythm may come from 2-Step, but I've found it blends amazingly well with a lot of Latin music, as well as some Afrobeat.

I totally agree about the futility of "jazzing up" genres for added legitimacy [...he says, looking at his cheap Jazz'n'Bass comp in shame], but it CAN be done well. All influences are welcome in Dubstep - chuck 'em all in, and let the public sort it out. :D
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owengriffiths
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Post by owengriffiths » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:56 pm

From the tracks I have heard from ThinKings & Crazy Dave's selction of broken tunes, I would highly recommend them. But watch out for the Rokstone Tune (the original mix is mellow, the boulder one below is the dubsteppy one)

Daz I Kue ft Colonel red- 'Rokstone (soon come' (Boulder Dub)
Bakura- 'Bada' (Domu Dub)
Son of Scientist- 'keep it burning' (off the burning ep)

Also try Nutmeg- 'Porno Football' (Neroli recs), one of the best broken tracks ever.

PS: When did posting lots of topics make you a tnuc?

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Post by elgato » Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:35 pm

owengriffiths wrote:PS: When did posting lots of topics make you a tnuc?
i can only speak for myself, but its not asking questions which is the issue, im actually enjoying reading some decent, interesting discussion for the first time in a while!

but the thing that grates me slightly about your posts is the language you use... it just sounds too over the top, needlessly descriptive to the point of verbose. and just little things (like referring to artists or promoters by their first names, or the slightly condescending drop about why people dont acknowledge youngsta's past) just immediately put me off slightly

i rate the enthusiasm, and you're asking very valid and interesting questions, but i think its the style which is drawing the unfortunate reaction

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the decoy
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Post by the decoy » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:18 am

ThinKing wrote:there's an old mix by me, plus links to plenty of others in this recent thread on DOA. :4:
oh, by the way, thank you for thank link.

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thinking
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Post by thinking » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:50 am

owengriffiths wrote:watch out for the Rokstone Tune (the original mix is mellow, the boulder one below is the dubsteppy one)

Daz I Kue ft Colonel red- 'Rokstone (soon come' (Boulder Dub)
mate the tune you're talking about is exactly the same as the one I linked above, minus the vocals (which is why it's called the dub mix).

owengriffiths wrote:Also try Nutmeg- 'Porno Football' (Neroli recs), one of the best broken tracks ever.
One of the best tracks ever?? I don't know about that, it only came out 6 months ago, it's not really had time to become a 'classic' yet, and there's an awful lot of tunes I'd name as the "best tracks ever" before that one.

At any rate, there have been much bigger tunes by Nutmeg (aka Dego 4Hero). His 2 previous 12"s for Neroli were much more popular at the time of release and still get battered hard. This 12" is one that never leaves the front of my box:

Nutmeg - State of Mind
Nutmeg - Bicycle Kick
BLACK BOX & BOX CLEVER

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DeepThought
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Post by DeepThought » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:23 pm

lets not forget

afronaut - carnival / golpe / work it
mark force - gypo
domu & volcov - souljah
4hero - hold it down
the bloodfire series

as well as freeq unique, psyan, nubian mindz, just one, and titonton
(though i know some of these are just other bugz monikers)

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owengriffiths
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Post by owengriffiths » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:36 pm

My knowledge of Broken Beat is a bit limited in that I only really found out about it 2 years ago. I owned the 4 Hero album and everything (2001 I think) but wasn't really aware that they came from a wider scene until I started haring more broken stuff on the J Da Flex show.

It's a pity there isn't a full on Broken show on national radio

When I found out that Crazy D's radio show was only a 1 hour slot I was a little dissapointed. But now I think it makes for a really good format whereby shows don't drag on for fucking ages. Kiss should do the same kind of thing with broken

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Krumb
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Post by Krumb » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:11 pm

[quote="DeepThought"]lets not forget

afronaut - carnival / golpe / work it
mark force - gypo
domu & volcov - souljah

seriously heavy tracks. benji b supports the scene best on radio i reckon, he's been playin a few more dubstep bits lately too

tubby t-ready she ready(seiji remix). pure bruk

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owengriffiths
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Post by owengriffiths » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:05 pm

Yeah the Benji b show is essential weekly listening, I can't really say that I would prefer him to play more broken as the other styles he represents are briliant too.

Without wanting to sound patronising, I sort of think of Benji B as being the 1Xtra equivalent of Gilles Peterson, and Patrick Forge as being the Kiss equivalent (it's how a simplistic PR man would describe the situation). Obviously these DJ's have very different styles, but they all share a connection (Benji was a producer on Gilles's show, and Patrick used to put on nights with Gilles).

In terms of these Dj's embracement of Dubstep- I think Benji has been clued up on it from day one really, and his radio friendship with J Da Flex couldn't help but enlighten him on our scene. But yeah, his recent shows have featured more dubstep than is per usual (think he even played a Coki dubplate recently)

Gilles seemed to be turned on to the scene by request line in the closing weeks of 2005. He really loved that tune!

Patrick Forge was a little slower to hear word of dubstep, but he played Digital Mystikz tracks as a show opener for about 4 weeks in a row earlier in the year. The Mystikz releases on Soul Jazz can only have helped this

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