Hot Limiting...

[wirez]

Hey all, I've been producing around 7 years now and am on my second year in a degree in music production but this simple question always floats around in my brain...

"Am I limiting my tracks too hot or not hot enough?"

On average I'll be mixing to around -5dB peak, -20-15 dB RMS and then pushing, on average, around 5dB into PSP Vintage Warmer 2 (with the ceiling at around 0.1dB, 'fat' on, 'multi' on and the release set to 'auto', also the knee is on 0.) I then add another (on average) 3/4dB into T Racks Clipper with the Output set to 0.1dB and the saturation to somewhere that sounds nice (usually about 4-5dB). Then adjusting them both so that the overall RMS level is around -10dB. I do A/B with other commercial tracks too and take plenty of breaks...

I know obviously the majority of people will use different limiters/clippers or either or... But, on average, how much gain are you pushing into your tracks on these plugs?

I feel like I'm doing everything properly and everything always seems to sound right, but I just get paranoid that I'm doing things wrong... It's a right bitch as well seeing as I'm privileged enough to be able to watch plenty of other engineers/producers at Uni, I just rarely do get the chance and never seem to get this question answered with anything other than vague advice...

Any sort of advice in this area is appreciated!

[Sentinels]

I'd say there is no strict answer, but for certain Dubstep and drum and bass are the two genres whereby you can get away with pushing things the most with limiting.

It it sounds shitty it is shitty. You seem to be pushing it pretty hot, im sure your getting alot of excitement from the vintage warmer also. Thing is on a Joy Orbison or Burial track it might sound shit, but on a Distance or Rusko tune you might get away with the extra harshness.

I start fucking with the master bus about 80% of the way into the tune and im constantly turning my plugins on and off to check what is going on.

A/B your mixes against the big boys and tracks you like. I personally think if you can get your tracks sounding as big as Chase and Status or Noisia or Pendulum you are doing a good job, or as warm and loud as a Justice tune if you are making stuff with more room then you are also doing well.

Lastly if you get a tune signed and pay for mastering don't give the master file at all hot. Most mastering engineers like at least 6db of room at the top and they will almost always do a better job than you will. There is no reason you can't send them a guide and even your settings for your software if they use the same stuff.

hope that helps.

[macc]

I feel like I'm doing everything properly and everything always seems to sound right

What are you worrying about then?

Only thing I'd suggest is to make sure that when you're finished applying all that PSP/T-Racks stuff, turn the output of the last processor down by the overall amount of gain you've put in, and switch the lot in and out several million times (if you aren't doing that already of course ). You might start to... not push them so hard.

[lowpass]

I feel like I'm doing everything properly and everything always seems to sound right

What are you worrying about then?

Only thing I'd suggest is to make sure that when you're finished applying all that PSP/T-Racks stuff, turn the output of the last processor down by the overall amount of gain you've put in, and switch the lot in and out several million times (if you aren't doing that already of course ). You might start to... not push them so hard.

lol always a depressing/enlightening moment when you start turning the output of processers/compressors down to match the input.

You suddenly realize that a lot of the time "better" was just louder

I'm not saying that will be the case with you op but for me it made me suddenly realize why all those compressor presets sounded so good

[wirez]

I feel like I'm doing everything properly and everything always seems to sound right

What are you worrying about then?

Haha I was wondering where'd you'd gone actually Macc, I haven't seen you on a post in quite a while I was hoping you'd find this thread

I have mild paranoia... Lol, I worry about it because I don't just make the music for my own pleasure... I like to ensure it sounds good to others too so I like to get things right, especially considering I'm hoping to be making a living from it!

and switch the lot in and out several million times (if you aren't doing that already of course ).

Could you explain what you mean by this please man? The only reason I DO push so hard is so that the tracks compete with others when played back in iTunes, I get fed up of listening to other peoples tunes and then all of a sudden one of mine comes on and it's quiet (if I don't push it hard)... I am completely aware of the damage it causes but to me it feels inevitable so if I am doing it I want to ensure I'm doing it 'properly'... My main concern is that if I didn't use the soft clipper after the limiter, I would probably be bashing in around 9dB gain into the limiter which seems like a stupid amount

[macc]

Haha I was wondering where'd you'd gone actually Macc, I haven't seen you on a post in quite a while I was hoping you'd find this thread

I'm always about Ain't been posting a lot though, it's true. Big things in the works

Could you explain what you mean by this please man? The only reason I DO push so hard is so that the tracks compete with others when played back in iTunes, I get fed up of listening to other peoples tunes and then all of a sudden one of mine comes on and it's quiet (if I don't push it hard)... I am completely aware of the damage it causes but to me it feels inevitable so if I am doing it I want to ensure I'm doing it 'properly'... My main concern is that if I didn't use the soft clipper after the limiter, I would probably be bashing in around 9dB gain into the limiter which seems like a stupid amount

I just meant bypass, at matched subjective levels. One should get into the habit of doing that asap, IMO. The extra level WILL fool you into ignoring the damage you're doing. Nothing wrong with pushing things hard (up to a point), but I'd try to listen to the damage you're causing and then working on resolving/removing that by making better decisions on how you get loud, and what specific tools you use to get there. Personally, those two plugins wouldn't be my first choice for transparent gain increase. They wouldn't even be my last choice for transparent gain increase, tbh

Look at it like this; If you're doing this yourself then limiting at matched levels allows you to hear when you start doing 'fatal damage' to the mix FAR easier. This in turn means that each tune is pushed only as far as it can go. They will come out at different levels according to how well-balanced and how 'loudness capable' the various tracks are. This in turn will (to some extent) inform your mixing for the future, as you'll slowly start to have a better idea where you're going right and where you're going wrong

[Depone]

I believe macc (correct me if im wrong) was saying after you have limited the track, turn the output of the limiter down as to match the same perceived volume before you limited it (by bypassing the plugins on and off. You will be able to hear the damage that your doing to the track

*** Edit. Macc beat me there with a more consice and brilliantly explained version of the soft wafffle i just wrote ^^^

[Sentinels]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that is realtalk.

-A/B at with a matched output volume and get listening.

-Add some harmonic excitment if you want to, don't let it be noticed unless it suits the track.

-Get hold of sonnox and waves plugins I would say, best in the box stuff I have ever used. (I'm not a massive fan of t-racks or ozone.)

-Also check every part of the track, the breakdowns and the drops.

- Watch your high frequencies. (hi hats/crashes/noisy synths) These are the ones that will start sounding naff first if you are over doing it.

[h*product]

good advice about loudness matching above. take heed.
as for how far you push it, we usually aim for no more than 5db of gain reduction in any limiter. if that doesn't take it up to commercial standards then we may need to re-asses our mix. remember though, a more empty mix will be harder to squeeze rms out of. so don't expect -7dbrms out of an empty subby tune.

[wirez]

Big things in the works

Awesome man Your own stuff or mastering for somebody else? That's if you do actually make your own stuff, I've never actually asked

I just meant bypass, at matched subjective levels. One should get into the habit of doing that asap, IMO. The extra level WILL fool you into ignoring the damage you're doing. Nothing wrong with pushing things hard (up to a point), but I'd try to listen to the damage you're causing and then working on resolving/removing that by making better decisions on how you get loud, and what specific tools you use to get there. Personally, those two plugins wouldn't be my first choice for transparent gain increase. They wouldn't even be my last choice for transparent gain increase, tbh

Ahh awesome I do this anyway but I will increasingly try to do it more now Haha as I don't have any transparent maximizers I've read in various places than you can obtain a similar effect by using a brickwall limiter followed by a soft clipper because of the roll off/saturation... Before, I used to use just a limiter (waves finalplug5) and found that I wasn't really keen on the effect it had on my tracks... It just didn't sound nice at all! So through trialling several other limiters I found PSPVM2 to have my most preferable sound as a brickwall limiter, although I do use others if the sound of that one isn't working on specific tracks...

Look at it like this; If you're doing this yourself then limiting at matched levels allows you to hear when you start doing 'fatal damage' to the mix FAR easier. This in turn means that each tune is pushed only as far as it can go. They will come out at different levels according to how well-balanced and how 'loudness capable' the various tracks are. This in turn will (to some extent) inform your mixing for the future, as you'll slowly start to have a better idea where you're going right and where you're going wrong

This sounds like solid advice as usual, thanks again for the help as always man!

-Get hold of sonnox and waves plugins I would say, best in the box stuff I have ever used. (I'm not a massive fan of t-racks or ozone.)

Haha, I would love to geezer, but 'get hold of' means buy for me and they're not cheap I will eventually invest in these selection of plugs though, I've had my eye on them for a long while!

we usually aim for no more than 5db of gain reduction in any limiter.

This has reassured me that I'm on track I always keep my soft clipper gain reduction (last in the chain) under -5dB!

Thanks a lot for the help all, keep the advice coming in if there's anymore out there!

[2manynoobs]

Personally i'm not really fond of pushing a track after the mixdown. Sometimes it changes the feel of my tunes that much that i end up with something else, most of the times something i don't like anymore. So i keep my fingers off of limiters and warmers, etc.. I try to do my best mixing it as tight as it can get and let ME's worry about the rest. That's what they are there for, no?

[Littlefoot]

Honeslty, when all I was doing was ITB mixes at home of my tunes, I found it really hard to separate, in my head when listening back, the effects of the limiter over the track and the effects of dynamic processors on other elements of the mix, enough to really make limiting more than 2dbs of limiting or so ever worth it.

It's also fair to say that most cheap monitors/interfaces arn't gonna really show you what the limters doing to your extreme low and the sparkly transients, spefically of faster percussion/drum elements, so be really careful not to keep pushing and pushing, as you'll end up undoing your careful EQ and balance between the mix elements.

It's worth baring in mind, that if your track gets airplay and someone wants to put it out, it's gonna (or should!) end up going to a mastering house, so it's really important that you don't rely on limiting too much in the mixing stage. I used to find it helpful to always bounce the tune before doing any "dancefloor/itunes levelling" before sending beats off. You can always send your home processed track as the "loudness you need" along with a headroom friendly version to your ME.

It's safe to say, it's better to play it safe with limiters, they are handy tools, but in the wrong hands (ears?) they can pull a mix apart without the artist even realising. Which is why most people pay someone else to do it I guess!

thanks

hope this helps!

Joe @ Subsequent