I'm gonna be one of the first people to have a UK ID card

[alien pimp]

the huge potential of abuse via the card = fact

Your imagination that something could happen, isn't proof of anyone's intentions.

You personally have the intention of doing very bad things, but people don't treat you as such until you have done or have shown intention as such.

Should I treat you as a murderer and a rapist, just because you have the potential of murdering and raping? No, of course not.

is the potential in my imagination? do you know what potential means? do you understand potential in the hands of someone who has a long history of evil-doing becomes danger?

[alien pimp]

Should I treat you as a murderer and a rapist, just because you have the potential of murdering and raping? No, of course not.

thats a shit analogy, its should be:
Should I treat you as a murderer and a rapist, just because you've done it a lot before? Yes, of course.

So you're suggesting our government should be treated suspiciously because they've "done it a lot before"?

So our government has used ID card schemes for the purpose of monitoring it's citizens actions before? Do you have any factually based evidence to support that claim?

in your books, just because a murderer used only glocks before it means he isn't capable of using a knife , huh? good one!

[alien pimp]

Should I treat you as a murderer and a rapist, just because you have the potential of murdering and raping? No, of course not.

thats a shit analogy, its should be:
Should I treat you as a murderer and a rapist, just because you've done it a lot before? Yes, of course.

[rbnc]

You guys can't even spell; let alone put together a rational, logical case against ID schemes.

I could be arguing your case better than you can, and I'm for them.

[badger]

So you're suggesting our government should be treated suspiciously because they've "done it a lot before"?

So our government has used ID card schemes for the purpose of monitoring it's citizens actions before? Do you have any factually based evidence to support that claim? No.

i'm not usually one to weigh in on alien pimps side but have you paid attention at all to the state of affairs in this country in the last few years? there's no evidence of the government using ID cards for its own ends but there's a ridiculous amount of examples of the government using various measures for means that they really shouldn't be using, so i can't see this being any different

but as long as it's a voluntary card i won't be losing any sleep over it

the benefits from the card = jokes

not sure i'd agree with that though. someone mentioned ID cards for foreign workers earlier, and that can help prevent trafficking and various other exploatation of overseas workers. now it may well have a negative effect on workers in the country that don't have proper leave to remain as a result (which is probably the government's real aim), but it does at least have some benefits

[rbnc]

i'm not usually one to weigh in on alien pimps side but have you paid attention at all to the state of affairs in this country in the last few years? there's no evidence of the government using ID cards for its own ends but there's a ridiculous amount of examples of the government using various measures for means that they really shouldn't be using, so i can't see this being any different

My reply to that has been, if the government really wanted to track specific things we were up to or any patterns in our spending and communication, they could already, in ID card would be in incredibly inefficient way of doing that. Your internet, bank and phone usage would offer much more information about what you're doing than an ID card ever has done.

I would suggest anyone worried trying to track patterns in their every day use stop using the Internet and cancel their bank account immediately.

[badger]

i'm not usually one to weigh in on alien pimps side but have you paid attention at all to the state of affairs in this country in the last few years? there's no evidence of the government using ID cards for its own ends but there's a ridiculous amount of examples of the government using various measures for means that they really shouldn't be using, so i can't see this being any different

My reply to that has been, if the government really wanted to track specific things we were up to or any patterns in our spending and communication, they could already, in ID card would be in incredibly inefficient way of doing that. Your internet, bank and phone usage would offer much more information about what you're doing than an ID card ever has done.

I would suggest anyone worried trying to track patterns in their every day use stop using the Internet and cancel their bank account immediately.

noones saying that ID cards are going to start something completely new, but they certainly will make it a hell of a lot easier to snoop on people, should the government want to

the governemnt could still spy on people when everyone was sending letters and riding on horses, but it got much easier when the modern age meant you could snoop via telephone, and then via computers, and now potentially with ID cards. it's a technologic evolution that, although it has clear benefits to all concerns, means that it's just that little bit for the powers that be to watch and control us should they wish to

[rbnc]

But how does an ID card make it any easier though? The wouldn't offer any further ability to 'snoop' than all the information that is at their disposal at the moment.

As someone who works with large databases as part of my job I have an understanding of how data is correlated together en masse, using something called JOINS. Where basically you find one bit of one data to correlate and attach that to another bit of data, thus bridging two data sets into one.

So for example let's say some unnamed government agency only knew your name, date of birth and address and wanted to find out some extra information about you, the ID card wouldn't facilitate that further.

They could do something like, do a full credit check on you, find out which banks you have had accounts with, where you lived etc then from there look at your account statement, who you have a phone bill and broadband bill. Then get your broadband and phone history off of them.

The ID card wouldn't actually help make that process faster at all, the only thing I could suggest it assisting with is tracking which airports you leave and come to. But if you have a passport that is already tracked anyway, so again it offers no extra ability to check your whereabouts.

[alien pimp]

You guys can't even spell; let alone put together a rational, logical case against ID schemes.

I could be arguing your case better than you can, and I'm for them.

this is what cowards say when they don't have the balls to admit they run out of arguments

[amick]

You guys can't even spell; let alone put together a rational, logical case against ID schemes.

I could be arguing your case better than you can, and I'm for them.

this is what cowards say when they don't have the balls to admit they run out of arguments

provoking shit is just as cowardly.

[tr0tsky]

not sure i'd agree with that though. someone mentioned ID cards for foreign workers earlier, and that can help prevent trafficking and various other exploatation of overseas workers. now it may well have a negative effect on workers in the country that don't have proper leave to remain as a result (which is probably the government's real aim), but it does at least have some benefits

Fuck this.


Freedom of movement for all.

Open the gates of fortress Europe.

[rbnc]

Freedom of movement for all.

Open the gates of fortress Europe.

That would be very sensible....The whole world would become a war zone.

[rbnc]

You guys can't even spell; let alone put together a rational, logical case against ID schemes.

I could be arguing your case better than you can, and I'm for them.

this is what cowards say when they don't have the balls to admit they run out of arguments

Fantastically articulate and irrefutable as ever.

[alien pimp]

the benefits from the card = jokes

not sure i'd agree with that though. someone mentioned ID cards for foreign workers earlier, and that can help prevent trafficking and various other exploatation of overseas workers. now it may well have a negative effect on workers in the country that don't have proper leave to remain as a result (which is probably the government's real aim), but it does at least have some benefits

one thing people can't ever understand: the lawless don't give a fuck on the law, the law affects only the law abiding. those who want to traffic shit will do it anyway. the gov does know that, but they made this shit for rnbcs not for the traffickers.
i am ready to bet that for every benefit of the card i can find an easier and cheaper method to get that done, prolly some of the methods are already existing and working

[alien pimp]

You guys can't even spell; let alone put together a rational, logical case against ID schemes.

I could be arguing your case better than you can, and I'm for them.

this is what cowards say when they don't have the balls to admit they run out of arguments

Fantastically articulate and irrefutable as ever.

the first smart thing you've said this year!

[rbnc]

i am ready to bet that for every benefit of the card i can find an easier and cheaper method to get that done, prolly some of the methods are already existing and working

OK, number one, you don't need a passport to fly within Europe with the ID card. How can I do that cheaper than with an ID card. That is a legit question.

[tr0tsky]

Freedom of movement for all.

Open the gates of fortress Europe.

That would be very sensible....The whole world would become a war zone.

Of course.

[alien pimp]

i am ready to bet that for every benefit of the card i can find an easier and cheaper method to get that done, prolly some of the methods are already existing and working

OK, number one, you don't need a passport to fly within Europe with the ID card. How can I do that cheaper than with an ID card. That is a legit question.

what is so cool about not using the passport? it's cheaper? maybe they should lower the price of the passport then, how about this marvelous idea?!
do you know how they place expensive and cheap products in shelves to get rnbcs buy more stuff? this is the answer to the price issue
what else?

[badger]

The ID card wouldn't actually help make that process faster at all, the only thing I could suggest it assisting with is tracking which airports you leave and come to. But if you have a passport that is already tracked anyway, so again it offers no extra ability to check your whereabouts.

you may be right about finding personal information but they can be used to track movements, much the same as with the oyster card (although at least the latter are anonymous)

Fuck this.


Freedom of movement for all.

Open the gates of fortress Europe.

nice in theory but the way things stand now there's not a chance of that working. people will inevitably come to the uk, and countries like it, searching for jobs/benefits and that's just not a viable option. it would be nice, but the economy simply can't handle it

the only way you can have every country free to all is if every country was as equal as another... which is pretty much the same reason why communism will never work without a complete world-wide shift come to think of it

[rbnc]

The ID card wouldn't actually help make that process faster at all, the only thing I could suggest it assisting with is tracking which airports you leave and come to. But if you have a passport that is already tracked anyway, so again it offers no extra ability to check your whereabouts.

you may be right about finding personal information but they can be used to track movements, much the same as with the oyster card (although at least the latter are anonymous)

If you have a mobile phone you can be traced to your location 24/7 with an accuracy of 30 metres through tower triangulations, that's how 999 have a rough idea of your co-ordinates when you call them from a mobile. That is a much better way of tracking where you are than a ID card that is only actually read at airports.

Also reading your bank statements can give a good idea of your where you've been too.