Hi-Hat - swingy groove help

[Japanese Narco Girl]

I dont tihnk i was clear enough in what i was saying - i know that they werent a swing feel and that the clave notation wasnt a swung feel, but i was just showing an example of swung notes used in tandem with straight rhythms. I don't mean to be a cock about it - im not a drummer myself, but as I said, I was showing smaller sections of swung notes. As far as my knowledge goes, swing can occur in some sections without a completely swung feel. In that clave rhythm the first bar is completely straight and then the first two notes of the second bar are swung notes - so if the whole notations was the same as these, it would be swung.

I meant to write in my last post that I wasnt showing examples of swing feel, but of swung notes. however in the blues tune the feel is slightly swung (to me) - however still not as swung as most jazz or swing.

[staticcast]

I dont tihnk i was clear enough in what i was saying - i know that they werent a swing feel and that the clave notation wasnt a swung feel, but i was just showing an example of swung notes used in tandem with straight rhythms. I don't mean to be a cock about it - im not a drummer myself, but as I said, I was showing smaller sections of swung notes. As far as my knowledge goes, swing can occur in some sections without a completely swung feel. In that clave rhythm the first bar is completely straight and then the first two notes of the second bar are swung notes - so if the whole notations was the same as these, it would be swung.

I meant to write in my last post that I wasnt showing examples of swing feel, but of swung notes. however in the blues tune the feel is slightly swung (to me) - however still not as swung as most jazz or swing.

I see what you're trying to say, but "swung notes" isn't the same thing as simply having a dotted 8th note followed by a 16th. Without wanting to generalise too far, a track usually has roughly the same swing rhythm applied to all instruments and all parts. So you can have lots of dotted 8ths etc in the first bar, yeah, but they're not "swung notes" unless the whole rhythm is actually swung.

You *can* have situations where some things are swung and not others, but this is a special case - sometimes it sounds good, usually it just sounds weird. Most of the cases you're referring to aren't swung, they're just syncopated rhythms (they have notes or accents off the main beats, but still on the grid).

[abZ]

Interesting article with quote from El-b and MJ Cole about how they do swing.
http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2 ... -jazz.html

I read this and it was interesting and all but I don't know if this is where some of the confusion comes from but a lot of the tips have nothing to do with swing it's just general tips on making beats really. I think this thread overcomplicates things as well I mean it's not that big of a deal. Most dubstep these days is a swung a tad. Every second 16th note is pushed a little behind the beat. There is defo a lot of experimenting going on these days. The groove engines on most DAW's are getting more and more complex. It is definitely the way forward, It think people are getting numb to strict straight 16th note patterns. But I think with dance music... dj music anyway it is best to keep it simple. If I want to hear a live drummer then god damnit I'll listen to a live drummer at the same time I am done with drum machine sounding beats. They were cool in the late 80's, I need a bit more than that.

[grooki]

At the OP, one way to find your way around how hi hats work is to Make a basic kick - snare patter (or just kick kick or snare snare if you like). make sure there is space so maybe just start one kick one snare. Then put a hihat hit in between somewhere and listen carefully to what it does to the flow. Then put another of the same hit somewhere else and see what that does to the flow. Then load another similar but different hh, turn it's velocity down really low, stick that in and see what that does to the flow.

basically careful experimentation with one shots is what I like to do. I don't like loops or premade patterns - apart from not being 'mine' (I like my drums), you are less likely to learn from them (IMO).

[serox]

I better make sure I full understand what I am thinking about.

When you say every second 16th note is pushed back. Do you mean, every other 16th note is pushed back? or only the last 16th note is pushed back?

[staticcast]

I better make sure I full understand what I am thinking about.

When you say every second 16th note is pushed back. Do you mean, every other 16th note is pushed back? or only the last 16th note is pushed back?

I don't mean every other 16th note in the pattern, I mean every other 16th note in the grid of possible positions where notes could go. As in, if you're drumming on the table, you play straight 8th notes, and (all of) the notes in between them are delayed a little. Like skipping instead of walking. You kinda warp the GRID, but the notes themselves still go on the same places in the grid.

[serox]

I better make sure I full understand what I am thinking about.

When you say every second 16th note is pushed back. Do you mean, every other 16th note is pushed back? or only the last 16th note is pushed back?

I don't mean every other 16th note in the pattern, I mean every other 16th note in the grid of possible positions where notes could go. As in, if you're drumming on the table, you play straight 8th notes, and (all of) the notes in between them are delayed a little. Like skipping instead of walking. You kinda warp the GRID, but the notes themselves still go on the same places in the grid.

What?:)

Is it possible to see a screenshot of what you mean?

[Baitface]

Does anyone use a delay pattern to create a similar feel, synced or unsynced for syncopation?

I've been doing this alot recently. I use FL so I program a hi hat pattern using samples in the step sequencer and route them to their own mixer channels. I then apply swing to the overall groove on the slider (On average, between 50 - 75%) and randomly edit the velocities of each hit to make it sound a bit more human.

I then create a 'Shuffle bus' on one of the send/group channels on the mixer. To this I add a vst called 'FL Delay Bank' and using the default setting I tweak the timing to around 4 seconds @ 140bpm (Or whatever sounds/feels right). I then send the hi hats to this bus.

I'll now spend a while tweaking the send amounts, timing and feedback of the delay, panning and volume untill I'm happy with it. The reason I put the effect on a bus is to save cpu and I'll also send other elements that I want to 'shuffle' to it later on. This way it all seems a bit more cohesive rather than using different delays on different elements. This can make the mix sound messy otherwise.

[serox]

I've been doing this alot recently. I use FL so I program a hi hat pattern using samples in the step sequencer and route them to their own mixer channels. I then apply swing to the overall groove on the slider (On average, between 50 - 75%) and randomly edit the velocities of each hit to make it sound a bit more human.

How do you apply swing in FL to a mixer channel?

[staticcast]

I better make sure I full understand what I am thinking about.

When you say every second 16th note is pushed back. Do you mean, every other 16th note is pushed back? or only the last 16th note is pushed back?

I don't mean every other 16th note in the pattern, I mean every other 16th note in the grid of possible positions where notes could go. As in, if you're drumming on the table, you play straight 8th notes, and (all of) the notes in between them are delayed a little. Like skipping instead of walking. You kinda warp the GRID, but the notes themselves still go on the same places in the grid.

What?:)

Is it possible to see a screenshot of what you mean?

The first line is straight, the second is swung. 8th notes are red (harder velocity) just for illustration, you don't have to accent them like that.

This is doing it manually - in Ableton you can use groove templates so it warps the quantize grid behind the scenes, but then a screenshot wouldn't show you much.

[serox]

Right I get you.

So just pushing the second note back like this, this is called a swung groove?

I do this sometimes but didnt know what it was called, it just sounded good. I would never leave them all pushed in the same direction and would make the next 16 notes different too.

Thanks for the screenshot, its easier to understand than reading about it.

[serox]

@Depone: When I said about moving the kick and snare a bit. I meant having them quantized and moving them on 8ths/16ths. Doing that and also moving the hats around creates a nice feel.

I cant wait to try out some swing buttons tho and see what happens. I spend ages trying to record things manually and then moving them around

[Baitface]

I've been doing this alot recently. I use FL so I program a hi hat pattern using samples in the step sequencer and route them to their own mixer channels. I then apply swing to the overall groove on the slider (On average, between 50 - 75%) and randomly edit the velocities of each hit to make it sound a bit more human.

How do you apply swing in FL to a mixer channel?

I don't think you can...

Maybe I should of worded that differently: "I program the hats in the step sequencer, apply swing to the overall groove on the slider (Top right hand corner of the step sequencer), then i route the samples to channels etc. to work on the delay effects.."

Hope that's clearer

[nowaysj]

Fuck this thread is really confusing.

A few things - you can have your hits on a rigid 1/16th and they can sound swung. Changes in velocity, or attack envelope can change the way the sound is heard, or perceived in the beat.

Not saying ukg swing is done this way, but you can pull this off.

To Serox - if you have notes in a piano roll, select the notes you want to swing (easily) and hit alt+q this will pull up the quantize dialog, in the top part, hit the groove templates, this will allow you to apply a groove template to the selected notes. I haven't f'ed with this in a long while. If you find a good swing in there, lemme know.

Another way is what brisance is saying up there, if you are using the step sequencer, select your channel and then hit the bar graph looking button in the upper right hand corner of the step sequencer window, slide the slider all the way to the right to get to shift. Shift allows you to move hits back in time, I find this to be a very fast way to swing beats.

Was just working on a beat today with all hits on the 3 delayed pretty substantially. Created mad anticipation for that snare. Give it to me, give it to me, is he going to give it to me? Yes, he gave it to me. All in the space of a fraction of a second. Jokes.

[serox]

I don't think you can...

Maybe I should of worded that differently: "I program the hats in the step sequencer, apply swing to the overall groove on the slider (Top right hand corner of the step sequencer), then i route the samples to channels etc. to work on the delay effects.."

Hope that's clearer

That slider does not do much does it?:) can you apply that slider to just the selected pattern yeh?

[serox]

Fuck this thread is really confusing.

A few things - you can have your hits on a rigid 1/16th and they can sound swung. Changes in velocity, or attack envelope can change the way the sound is heard, or perceived in the beat.

Not saying ukg swing is done this way, but you can pull this off.

To Serox - if you have notes in a piano roll, select the notes you want to swing (easily) and hit alt+q this will pull up the quantize dialog, in the top part, hit the groove templates, this will allow you to apply a groove template to the selected notes. I haven't f'ed with this in a long while. If you find a good swing in there, lemme know.

Another way is what brisance is saying up there, if you are using the step sequencer, select your channel and then hit the bar graph looking button in the upper right hand corner of the step sequencer window, slide the slider all the way to the right to get to shift. Shift allows you to move hits back in time, I find this to be a very fast way to swing beats.

Was just working on a beat today with all hits on the 3 delayed pretty substantially. Created mad anticipation for that snare. Give it to me, give it to me, is he going to give it to me? Yes, he gave it to me. All in the space of a fraction of a second. Jokes.

got ya,

[serox]

Was just working on a beat today with all hits on the 3 delayed pretty substantially. Created mad anticipation for that snare. Give it to me, give it to me, is he going to give it to me? Yes, he gave it to me. All in the space of a fraction of a second. Jokes.

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMe8MeJ09lA

[Baitface]

I don't think you can...

Maybe I should of worded that differently: "I program the hats in the step sequencer, apply swing to the overall groove on the slider (Top right hand corner of the step sequencer), then i route the samples to channels etc. to work on the delay effects.."

Hope that's clearer

That slider does not do much does it?:) can you apply that slider to just the selected pattern yeh?

Yeah it certainly does.. For me anyways. The way your pattern is contructed determines how much swing you can actually hear. Also depends on the tempo.. On some of my D&B/Jungle bits you can hardly hear the swing so there's not much point unless you're only using one-shots (i.e. aren't using a break/loop to construct your groove.

In answer to your second question. I'm not sure... I think it affects the entire track to be honest with you. I'll have to open Fruity and check when I get home to be sure.

[serox]

Just been trying the 'swing' slider on the sequencer. Its quite poor if you ask me and it does the whole sequencer! so everything is swung, which is not good imo?

I had a look at the groove templates under Quantize and they dont seem to do anything decent either. Maybe I am using it wrong but I just tried it on some hi hats and it was making changes to the velocitys and the groove just does not seem to fit with dance music imo.

[madmeesh]

God DAMN - I want to get in on this mega confusing discussion.

I'd love to contribute another way of understanding swing with respect to DUBSTEP because there are in my view 3-4 different ways to achieve it:

#1 the easiest and most familiar is the traditional hip hop swung high hat line which can be expressed as STRAIGHT 8th notes (8 hits occuring evenly over a bar) then swinging every second one late. This is also, technically, a triplet (if swung late enough) with the middle note left out (like someone already said here).

Things get more confusing when you enter into 16th note territory. Like it's been said by a couple people in this thread, swing CAN BE ACHIEVED with straight 16ths. Reso is the best example of this IMO, Otacon is a lot of straight 16 yet there is an undeniable swing. From a technical standpoint nothing is swung, yet this shows you how much potential half-step @ 140 actually has!!

Swung 16th notes are DIFFERENT MATHEMATICALLY than the traditional triplet-based swing of example #1. You achieve those by swinging straight 16th notes off the grid slightly. Reso again shows us the way. My guess is that most people wanting to use more swing would want to start here.

So to draw an overall conclusion here..if you want to use swing in your beats and you want to make half-step or 2-step rhythms at 140BPM you have CHOICES:

****The traditional swing where the first and last note of a triplet are used. This is hip-hop / jazz 101. Full triplet-over-four grooves are much rarer, but they exist, and in my opinion are a damn strong approach to half-step. But for the sake of education, this is a nice example of simply swung high hats that are rooted in triplets, but are not FULL triplets:


****Straight 16 where highly articulated high hats, proper sampling with velocity changes, and interesting kick variations give "swing".

****Or swung 16th notes which is a popular approach for dubstep, 2step and garage.