MTV: THE 'JOYSTEP' REPLY FROM JOE MUGGS!

[Visitor]

haha respect

[joe muggs]

Thankyou all!

the only thing i take exception to is that the "intelligent dnb" days were somehow the bad old days. poor naming for a subgenre sure but im really sick of all the dnb bashing, attempts to distant dubstep from dnb due to some, mostly overhyped over exaggerated, "failures" within dnb. Dnb has always rocked imo and is becoming more and more appealing to me again, there were some stronger eras then others for sure but as a whole dnb is great music to me. i love both dubstep and dnb.

but with that said it was mostly spot on and miles better than the other article.

This was not meant as a pop at D&B, some of what got called "intelligent" was great music - it was the terminology... likewise I hate "intelligent techno" and even worse "IDM", but "intelligent D&B" was the real stinger because it had that undercurrent of low-level racism in it.

[joekool]

i think its hilarious that the MoS comp so many people have been talking shit about was something he helped compile

great article, joe, i agree with every single word you said. very polite way of telling people to stop bitching and LOVE THE SOUND. sometimes the negativity on here is so godawful that i think people forget how healthy this music is.

my favorite quote:

"Some will, invariably, say that this compilation is the death of dubstep, but then those same people have probably been saying that each new variant on the sound, or each new influx of fans is the death of dubstep pretty much since the term was first used."

[press]

Thankyou all!

the only thing i take exception to is that the "intelligent dnb" days were somehow the bad old days. poor naming for a subgenre sure but im really sick of all the dnb bashing, attempts to distant dubstep from dnb due to some, mostly overhyped over exaggerated, "failures" within dnb. Dnb has always rocked imo and is becoming more and more appealing to me again, there were some stronger eras then others for sure but as a whole dnb is great music to me. i love both dubstep and dnb.

but with that said it was mostly spot on and miles better than the other article.

This was not meant as a pop at D&B, some of what got called "intelligent" was great music - it was the terminology... likewise I hate "intelligent techno" and even worse "IDM", but "intelligent D&B" was the real stinger because it had that undercurrent of low-level racism in it.

word.

[fractal]

out to Mr Muggs, every time!

[flashharry]

It's completely inaccessible as a piece of writing and to be honest its just intellectual masturbation.
You're no better than the guy who wrote the original piece imo.
dubstep is the new labour of music.
there's a piece i'd like to read.

[fractal]

good try tho

[cosmic_surgeon]

a massive and multifarious spread of sounds that orbit this strange attractor called “dubstep”

Very clever. An enjoyable read.

[j.nitrous]

Nail on the head. thank fuck.

[the-voice-of-reason]

"intelligent D&B" was the real stinger because it had that undercurrent of low-level racism in it.

Calling something intelligent is racist? "Intelligent dnb" had a level of racism attached to it? are you serious? The biggest "Intelligent dnb" labels such as good looking/looking good - ltj bukem / creative source - fabio / metalheads - goldie / reinforced -dego&marc mac / prototype - grooverider / timeless - digital / renegade - clayton were all own and ran by black guys and the crowds buying the music and attending the nights were very mixed. you just wrote a whole article trying to straighten out someones silly misconceptions about a genre but managed to start your own silly misconceptions about other genres along the way , well done.

[joe muggs]

"intelligent D&B" was the real stinger because it had that undercurrent of low-level racism in it.

Calling something intelligent is racist? "Intelligent dnb" had a level of racism attached to it? are you serious? The biggest "Intelligent dnb" labels such as good looking/looking good - ltj bukem / creative source - fabio / metalheads - goldie / reinforced -dego&marc mac / prototype - grooverider / timeless - digital / renegade - clayton were all own and ran by black guys and the crowds buying the music and attending the nights were very mixed. you just wrote a whole article trying to straighten out someones silly misconceptions about a genre but managed to start your own silly misconceptions about other genres along the way , well done.

You might remember it that way - I don't. As far as I was aware Bukem, for example, HATED the term "intelligent", and I don't remember those other labels you mentioned using it particularly. I remember loads of hippies and students (and yes, I was a student too then) suddenly jumping on it even though they hated "all that horrible ragga stuff.

And anyway, just like I say about dubstep in the article, it was an artificial divide. On a decent night out, you'd hear Alex Reece AND DJ Hype AND Dillinja AND Congo Natty - or whatever combination, and when the harder and lighter sides were separated out it was to the detriment of the music...

[hackman]

great article

[the-voice-of-reason]

"intelligent D&B" was the real stinger because it had that undercurrent of low-level racism in it.

Calling something intelligent is racist? "Intelligent dnb" had a level of racism attached to it? are you serious? The biggest "Intelligent dnb" labels such as good looking/looking good - ltj bukem / creative source - fabio / metalheads - goldie / reinforced -dego&marc mac / prototype - grooverider / timeless - digital / renegade - clayton were all own and ran by black guys and the crowds buying the music and attending the nights were very mixed. you just wrote a whole article trying to straighten out someones silly misconceptions about a genre but managed to start your own silly misconceptions about other genres along the way , well done.

You might remember it that way - I don't. As far as I was aware Bukem, for example, HATED the term "intelligent", and I don't remember those other labels you mentioned using it particularly. I remember loads of hippies and students (and yes, I was a student too then) suddenly jumping on it even though they hated "all that horrible ragga stuff.

And anyway, just like I say about dubstep in the article, it was an artificial divide. On a decent night out, you'd hear Alex Reece AND DJ Hype AND Dillinja AND Congo Natty - or whatever combination, and when the harder and lighter sides were separated out it was to the detriment of the music...

Your knowledge of dnb seems to be about the same level as Benjamin Hills knowledge of dubstep , I still fail to see how you make the link between "Intelligent dnb" and racism?
If you're drawing those conclusions from the whole "Intelligent dnb" vs Ragga Jungle split , you should know the the most vocal opponents towards the Ragga Jungle scene were the likes of bukem/fabio/grooverider(check their old interviews for confirmation) which led to them pushing the 'speed' nights which could be comparable to whats happening now in dubstep where nights are only booking full on midrange tear out djs and other nights are booking djs which play deeper tunes... how often to you see nights any more with the likes of say appleblim/scuba/martyn playing along side of doctor p/caspa/reso? they are getting less and less and that is the first signs of a split in the scene... Anyway I still want to know how you link "Intelligent dnb" and racism?

[joe muggs]

Your knowledge of dnb seems to be about the same level as Benjamin Hills knowledge of dubstep , I still fail to see how you make the link between "Intelligent dnb" and racism?
If you're drawing those conclusions from the whole "Intelligent dnb" vs Ragga Jungle split , you should know the the most vocal opponents towards the Ragga Jungle scene were the likes of bukem/fabio/grooverider(check their old interviews for confirmation) which led to them pushing the 'speed' nights which could be comparable to whats happening now in dubstep where nights are only booking full on midrange tear out djs and other nights are booking djs which play deeper tunes... how often to you see nights any more with the likes of say appleblim/scuba/martyn playing along side of doctor p/caspa/reso? they are getting less and less and that is the first signs of a split in the scene... Anyway I still want to know how you link "Intelligent dnb" and racism?

Like I say, you obviously have different memories. I certainly don't recall Fabio & Grooverider calling their music Intelligent D&B

If you don't think the marketing of lightweight tunes to be played in clothes shops and winebars and at the Big Chill festival as "more intelligent" than jungle that was played in clubs to mixed audience, and the jumping on the bandwagon of loads of overwhelmingly white electronica producers etc, had a racial subtext then fine, we'll have to agree to differ.

It's not even the point I was making in the article. The point is that "more intelligent" is a shit and snobby way of describing music and by implication putting down other music.

[pure]

i like dubstep not joystep

[the-voice-of-reason]

Your knowledge of dnb seems to be about the same level as Benjamin Hills knowledge of dubstep , I still fail to see how you make the link between "Intelligent dnb" and racism?
If you're drawing those conclusions from the whole "Intelligent dnb" vs Ragga Jungle split , you should know the the most vocal opponents towards the Ragga Jungle scene were the likes of bukem/fabio/grooverider(check their old interviews for confirmation) which led to them pushing the 'speed' nights which could be comparable to whats happening now in dubstep where nights are only booking full on midrange tear out djs and other nights are booking djs which play deeper tunes... how often to you see nights any more with the likes of say appleblim/scuba/martyn playing along side of doctor p/caspa/reso? they are getting less and less and that is the first signs of a split in the scene... Anyway I still want to know how you link "Intelligent dnb" and racism?

Like I say, you obviously have different memories. I certainly don't recall Fabio & Grooverider calling their music Intelligent D&B

If you don't think the marketing of lightweight tunes to be played in clothes shops and winebars and at the Big Chill festival as "more intelligent" than jungle that was played in clubs to mixed audience, and the jumping on the bandwagon of loads of overwhelmingly white electronica producers etc, had a racial subtext then fine, we'll have to agree to differ.

It's not even the point I was making in the article. The point is that "more intelligent" is a shit and snobby way of describing music and by implication putting down other music.

I never claimed that they called it "Intelligent dnb"
And judging by what you just wrote and your opinion it's you who is setting the racial boundary's based on musical taste and where people choose to go to hear music.

[fractal]

A/S/L?

[reveal]

I'm voting for Joe on Thursday.

Can this article be automatically posted into every brostep vs. deepstep, x is going to ruin debstep thread please?

Cheers.

[slothrop]

Epic level of denial going on in this scene imo.

Sure, you can't neatly pigeonhole everything into two opposing camps, but if you can't see that there are DJs and audiences who want stuff to be varied and unpredictable and DJs and audiences who want a filthy wobble in every tune all night and that these two attitudes just don't work well together then you've got some serious 'la la la not listening' action going on.

[seckle]

solid read joe. I agree with most of what you've mentioned.

personally, i can't stand when people use the word "deeper". what does that really mean, deeper? it would mean that there's "thinner" or "shallow" to oppose it. ridiculous.