Deaths as Israel Storms Gaza Aid Ship

[symmetricalsounds]

I'm still confused on this level of outrage... some is understandable but i think the majority is the old jewish multiplier.

these people knowingly broke a military blockade trying to provoke a reaction out of Israel, yet they're somehow blameless victims when they get the exact reaction they wanted?

The loss of life is unfortunate but this reminds me of the kids who were leaning over throwing rocks at a tiger at the zoo and acted appauled when the tiger mauled one of them.

Stupid things happen to stupid people.

that comparison would only work if the tiger had expanded the size of the zoo so that it now took up the whole city and all the people were forced to live in one street.

[kay]

Man, some of the bullshit in this thread is unbelievable.

Most activism is a thankless undertaking--- just have to ignore the naysayers and do what you think is necessary. Sitting on one's ass abusing other people's efforts to bring about change while doing nothing of any real consequence yourself is a highly effective way of maintaining the status quo, regardless of how progressive or radical your beliefs might be.

Just have to read the nonsense going on in here to see why the world isn't becoming a better place despite all the do-gooders around. They're too bloody busy arguing about the right way to do things to actually get anything done.

[pkay]

I'm still confused on this level of outrage... some is understandable but i think the majority is the old jewish multiplier.

these people knowingly broke a military blockade trying to provoke a reaction out of Israel, yet they're somehow blameless victims when they get the exact reaction they wanted?

The loss of life is unfortunate but this reminds me of the kids who were leaning over throwing rocks at a tiger at the zoo and acted appauled when the tiger mauled one of them.

Stupid things happen to stupid people.

that comparison would only work if the tiger had expanded the size of the zoo so that it now took up the whole city and all the people were forced to live in one street.

no, regardless of how much area the tiger occupies, being a dumbass is still going to get you mauled

[tr0tsky]

I'm still confused on this level of outrage... some is understandable but i think the majority is the old jewish multiplier.

these people knowingly broke a military blockade trying to provoke a reaction out of Israel, yet they're somehow blameless victims when they get the exact reaction they wanted?

The loss of life is unfortunate but this reminds me of the kids who were leaning over throwing rocks at a tiger at the zoo and acted appauled when the tiger mauled one of them.

Stupid things happen to stupid people.

that comparison would only work if the tiger had expanded the size of the zoo so that it now took up the whole city and all the people were forced to live in one street.

no, regardless of how much area the tiger occupies, being a dumbass is still going to get you mauled

You're suggesting that we're angrier at the murders than we would have otherwise been because Israel is a Jewish state?


What fucking planet are you on? Magma's a Jew for fuck's sake.

[symmetricalsounds]

I'm still confused on this level of outrage... some is understandable but i think the majority is the old jewish multiplier.

these people knowingly broke a military blockade trying to provoke a reaction out of Israel, yet they're somehow blameless victims when they get the exact reaction they wanted?

The loss of life is unfortunate but this reminds me of the kids who were leaning over throwing rocks at a tiger at the zoo and acted appauled when the tiger mauled one of them.

Stupid things happen to stupid people.

that comparison would only work if the tiger had expanded the size of the zoo so that it now took up the whole city and all the people were forced to live in one street.

no, regardless of how much area the tiger occupies, being a dumbass is still going to get you mauled

yeah pretty dumb to stand up for your human rights, may aswell just roll over and be mauled. i mean all the U.N resolutions don't show israel is in the wrong do they.

[nowaysj]

Gonna skip most of this thread and just spew my ideas.

Just to let you know where I'm coming from, I have long thought that the US should withdraw all financial and military support to Israel.

This flotilla was a provocative act. I believe it was designed to provoke, and that it did. I think it very likely that the Israeli soldiers were attacked when they boarded the vessel.

Can anyone disagree with a nation's ability to intercept vessels entering its waters? Prolly some of you can. I can't; I think it is totally reasonable for a nation to have the power to control what comes in and out of it's borders.

With that said, this shit went down, apparently, in international waters. Total fuck up on Israel's part, and I think it will completely alter their policy in Gaza. I think this could have blown over, but the fact that the North Koreans just torpedoed a South Korean ship, and the US is drumming up support to fuck with NK... well the timing is just too tight to avoid the accurate accusation of hypocrisy.

[magma]

With that said, this shit went down, apparently, in international waters.

This is basically the crux of everything. It wasn't Israel's territory to defend... that's not "defense" or "war", it's murder.

[tr0tsky]

What you’re missing is:

1. Gaza is under an illegal siege, which the United Nations still considers to be suffering from a humanitarian catastrophe.
2. The United Nations considers the aid that Israel allows to let through to Gaza less than a quarter of what is necessary.
3. Palestine should have access to its own boarders, and this includes the sea.
4. Any attack on the Israeli commandos was justified. The Israeli Defence Force prove themselves time and time again to be nasty, blood-thirsty stnuc.
5. If it was Iran that carried out the act, what would the response from the international community be?



And I disagree with Magma. Israel is happy to murder (Western) peace activists on it's own turf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_Hook
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... and_Israel



Israel is an apartheid state that should be consigned to the dustbin of history.

[feral witchchild]

What you’re missing is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_Hook
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... and_Israel

[magma]

I'm not sure I disagree with that too much, tr0ts - I was just saying that this specific incident was International Waters - it's a clear case of murder because no territory could be involved... it's daft anyone playing the "defending our borders" card. It's murder plain and simple.

Israel has an apartheid Government that should be consigned to the dustbin of history.

This I can get down with... I can't work out what you do with all the people if you get rid of the country - you end up with the same situation as now, but in reverse, surely? But the government and upper echelons of the army/secret services have to go... they're not even trying to *look* like they give a fuck about anyone at the moment.

That roll call is depressing, but thanks for the links.

[tr0tsky]

This I can get down with... I can't work out what you do with all the people if you get rid of the country - you end up with the same situation as now, but in reverse, surely? But the government and upper echelons of the army/secret services have to go... they're not even trying to *look* like they give a fuck about anyone at the moment.

Sorry to answer your question with a question, but there are approximately 6 million Palestinian refugees living in camps (mostly in Jordan and Lebanon). These people were mostly driven from the land starting in 1948 founding of the State of Israel and continued with the 1967 Six Day War.

i.e the refugees have left their land in a lifetime, many refugees being old enough and alive enough to know first-hand which piece of land and where belong to them.

Furthermore, we can over-lay this with the knowledge that the majority of this land has been settled and distributed to Jews and other citizens of Israel.

A resolution to the Israel-Palestine must include a mechanism where these people can return to their homes that have been forcefully taken from them.

With the current UN estimates of 6 million refugees living overseas in camps, yet the population of Israel is only 7.5 million, how would you be able to reconcile a two-state solution?


In other words, why is Benjamin Gluckstein, living in New York yet descended from Polish Jews (and has never been to the Middle East before) able to purchase a piece of land in the occupied West Bank yet Mohammed Hussain, who remembers being forced from a specific land by Israeli militants in 1967 and living in Southern Lebanon not able to go back there.

[nowaysj]

What you’re missing is:

1. Gaza is under an illegal siege, which the United Nations still considers to be suffering from a humanitarian catastrophe.
2. The United Nations considers the aid that Israel allows to let through to Gaza less than a quarter of what is necessary.
3. Palestine should have access to its own boarders, and this includes the sea.

Nah, I'm not really missing any of these.

5. If it was Iran that carried out the act, what would the response from the international community be?

More meaningless resolutions?

[magma]

With the current UN estimates of 6 million refugees living overseas in camps, yet the population of Israel is only 7.5 million, how would you be able to reconcile a two-state solution?

With great difficulty and a lot of care. Northern Ireland seemed to just about manage it. This is a lot more complex, but it's the same principle... people on both sides need to learn to get along... Israel must be forced to give back certain territories and not encroach anymore, but Palestinians need to be realistic about the practical benefits of "moving home".

A resolution to the Israel-Palestine must include a mechanism where these people can return to their homes that have been forcefully taken from them.

I'm not sure I agree. A lot of shit went down in the 20th Century and the whole area has been managed terribly. Simply "righting" 60 year old territorial disputes is going to leave an enormous mess of Jewish *and* Muslim displacement to deal with (something we've already had to deal with once)... what I'd much prefer to see happen is for humans on both sides to realise that the tiny bit of Earth they stand on has absolutely nothing to do with them.... property of land is the biggest load of bollocks humanity ever created... what matters is availability of shelter, water, food, work and community... and that's possible no matter what lattitude and longditute the X on your map shows.

The more Zionist Jews in Israel need to accept that the world doesn't owe them a purified homeland and the Palestinians need to realise that their problems will not disappear just because they live in the same coordinates that their Grandad did 2 generations ago.

It worries me that people see this as a "war" to "win". People are so fucking competitive. It's a dispute to be agreed upon and then moved on from as quickly as humanly possible.... they've tried the "fighting" thing for decades and it hasn't solved anything.

[xarcane]

You're missing the fact that this happened in international waters; it wasn't even in Israel's territory... And whether the flotilla intended to provoke Israel or not, Israel are wrong to prevent aid from reaching Gaza in the first place. This has just highlighted what Israel are doing in Gaza, 65% of babies born anaemic, 80% of aid being prevented from reaching Gaza. It's disgusting.

[the acid never lies]

Yeah I'm with Magma on this one, simply moving people back to their old homes seems like no solution, where are all the people settles there already, who may include second third generation and have nothing to do with past events going to go?

Tr0ts, proper tea is theft init.

[HamCrescendo]

Tr0tsky's getting out-commied.

[_v_]

the map on the end is ten years old.

[tr0tsky]

Yeah I'm with Magma on this one, simply moving people back to their old homes seems like no solution, where are all the people settles there already, who may include second third generation and have nothing to do with past events going to go?

Tr0ts, proper tea is theft init.

Tr0tsky's getting out-commied.

As I said on page 3...

My analysis of the Middle East is that a free Palestine for the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and Samaritans cannot exist with an economic system that is based on the ownership of property.

BLAM.

Aint nobody gonna out-Communist me, especially not a member of the Socialist Workers' Party

[nicenice]

I'm still confused on this level of outrage... some is understandable but i think the majority is the old jewish multiplier.

these people knowingly broke a military blockade trying to provoke a reaction out of Israel, yet they're somehow blameless victims when they get the exact reaction they wanted?

The loss of life is unfortunate but this reminds me of the kids who were leaning over throwing rocks at a tiger at the zoo and acted appauled when the tiger mauled one of them.

Stupid things happen to stupid people.

I don't understand how wanting to help other people is stupid.

[hackman]

http://www.bigcampaign.org/index.php?pa ... aeli_goods