england is grim

[tomm]

Only one race. The human race.

and what a shower of bastards we all are!

[faust.dtc]

Why is it that when St Georges Day comes around people do not celebrate a reason for the nation to at least unite for an excuse to have a drink together for fear of any connection to racial hatred however when St Patricks Day comes around we all smile at how the Irish seem like a happy fun lot who have pride in where they come from?
I think white, English people have a really bad stigma attached to them, which could be due to our history, but any argument against us all being like this just adds further proof of us all being undercover racists looking for excuses.

And anyway, you're Italian (?)

Thats another thing that gets me, people have always thought that because I do not have full English roots that I can be put into any category suits the view point of the person making the comment. It seems to me that if a white person cusses a black person in my presence I must be approving as im white however I have had non-white people cuss white people in front of me only to be told 'oh you dont mind do you, youre Italian anyway'.
My mothers mother is Italian and my fathers father is Hungarian however I was born and raised here so I consider myself English. That doesnt mean that I get caught up in the whole national pride thing though, its simply a reflection on what my passport says, but I do get pissed of when people feel they are doing the moral thing by claiming the smallest things, such as flag barers, are racist, especially considering it is only being done in support of a football competition. Never once have I seen a Brazilian dancing on the terraces in full colour waving a flag and have thought 'racist'. I am not going to be waving a flag myself or wearing a football shirt as it isnt my type of thing but putting a tag on the english people who do is inverse racism in itself...

[kidshuffle]

Only one race. The human race.

IF IT AINT WHITE IT AINT RIGHT

[the acid never lies]

racism is another one one of the reasons, the why is because humans always work in a them and us situation. People try to create a bond with others in order to make them feel as if they fit in and to do that they create a shared reason to bond together and dislike some other people.

Sure I get the distinction - I'm not saying that tribalism is always bad either.

Forces can push you towards anti immigrant and racist views because it provides an answer as to why there is so much competition for jobs and housing. You are far more likely to buy into these arguments if jobs and housing are an issue for you than if you are financially sorted. Calling somebody "a racist" often confuses this issue. Of course, if you had any sense you'd join a trade union instead and encourage immigrants to do the same!

In a world where capital can move freely around the world, workers should have the same right. Border controls are far more to blame for wages being undercut than by an influx of immigrants. Imagine: if you could go anywhere, you would simply leave a company that refuses to pay you a fair wage and move somewhere that does provide it. Nobody could get away with paying you a shit wage because they would know that you could just up and go!

[saphyre]

wearing a shirt at to a match is different to hanging up an england flag outside your house, i think several people in this thread have explained that by now

[magma]

Aren't racism / tribalism essentially the same thing? It's not as if somebody with racist views needs a rational justification, that's why 'racism' is the constant and the reasons are always changing (biology, culture, religion....)

Not necessarily... it's probably safer to encourage a bit of tribalism through sport than it is to let it spill over into areas, like race, where there is the possibility for negative discrimination is that much greater. It's only real idiots who get drawn into football related violence, but when racism is allowed to run rife it seems to spill over to a lot more people.

We're tribal about lots of things... I imagine people from here wouldn't throw bricks at members of a DJ Tiesto forum... but I also imagine that they would consider themselves "better" and would be happy enough to argue why they thought so... it's no different really, we think our culture is better than theirs.

At least with football you can get an answer - the team that wins the match/tournament, everyone's a bit grumpy for a while but they get over it (even England fans are giving up complaining about the Hand of God) - when racism as the tribal glue rather than sport, it tends to be incurable for decades or centuries.

So yeah... err... I'm not sure where I was going with that. Football tribalism good, I think.


Edit: Essentially, Travis has had it right whenever he's put his fingers to keyboard in this thread...


Plus the racism/xenophobia thing is still confusing me. Supporting the England football team inherently involves supporting people of various races. Do people expect white flagwavers to boo when Aaron Lennon* gets the ball?! Does the (St George flag covered) Barmy Army heckle when Panesar bowls?

*I was gonna say Ashley Cole, but....

[kidshuffle]

I love how getting flying your flag, or wearing a symbol of your country only makes you look like a douche when you come from a historically arrogant country. Just learn acceptance goddamn it.

[mr. lizard]

My flag is up

[the acid never lies]

My flag is up

Disgusting.

[mr. lizard]

This thread made me do it

[kay]

Wearing an England t-shirt = Waving an England flag = Nationalistic pride, or a desire to be part of a national movement.

Denigrating people from a foreign country or on the basis of race (including one's own race) = racism.

You people really need to separate nationalism from racism. They are not the same. Especially in a multicultural society.

[nicenice]

Probably one of the most ridiculously stupid threads I've seen in a while

[wolf89]

Probably one of the most ridiculously stupid threads I've seen in a while

Yep. Me too.

And there's a lot on here.

[Pistonsbeneath]

nowt wrong with discussion boys and seeing where people stand on issues not talked about

[nicenice]

Its stupid discussion. Why discuss something that is just stupid and the majority of people are wrong.

[wolf89]

nowt wrong with discussion boys and seeing where people stand on issues not talked about

Discussion is good.

People are often being fucking idiots here though

[kay]

People are often being fucking idiots here though

[-dubson-]

Wearing an England t-shirt = Waving an England flag = Nationalistic pride, or a desire to be part of a national movement.

Denigrating people from a foreign country or on the basis of race (including one's own race) = racism.

You people really need to separate nationalism from racism. They are not the same. Especially in a multicultural society.

Yeah this. But then nationalism leads to xenophobia and then the usual hate towards people that are different. Standing in the way of harmony an' all.

[helix]

Wearing an England t-shirt = Waving an England flag = Nationalistic pride, or a desire to be part of a national movement.

Denigrating people from a foreign country or on the basis of race (including one's own race) = racism.

You people really need to separate nationalism from racism. They are not the same. Especially in a multicultural society.

Yeah this. But then nationalism leads to xenophobia and then the usual hate towards people that are different. Standing in the way of harmony an' all.

See that's funny, because I'm nationalistic about the US specifically because as a country, we've historically (sort of) accepted everyone. Even though everybody may not get along, we all live in the same damn country. And it's kind of funny, I know a lot of people who might not be "racially compatible" with each other (huge fucking racists) will all claim to be from the USA.
TL;DR, the US is a dysfunctional family.

[Neurotik]

Flags are ruining dubstep...
















...i'll see myself out.