gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[e_o]

In this digital age, the people who do mastering are basically ripping off the people. Here’s why. When somebody start to master a record you don’t have a separated track. You’re working from a stereo track. The only thing you can do to it is add a little bass, take off bass, put some highs, take off mids… you can’t just go and pick an individual instrument and change it. But this whole thing about mastering, especially in the digital age, that when a song is properly mixed you’re not supposed to do anything like that to it. No compression! They all swear by the bible of compression. I never used a compressor. The only thing a compressor do is constantly turning down the track. The only thing I used compressors on is vocals. No compressor on bass. It doesn’t make the bass get any more solid. It doesn’t make the bass get any more fat. All that stuff we was doing at Channel One and that stuff there – there is no compression running anywhere.

just cut from interview with the mighty Scientist.

full interview http://www.unitedreggae.com/articles/n2 ... -scientist

[setspeed]

But this whole thing about mastering, especially in the digital age, that when a song is properly mixed you’re not supposed to do anything like that to it.

indeed. and until most of us get our 30 years of professional mix engineering experience under our belts, we're still going to need mastering

[mmjdw]

full interview http://www.unitedreggae.com/articles/n2 ... -scientist

Throughout the entire interview the only impression I got of this producer was ego. I doubt his production is as incredible as he says.

[macc]

I haven't read that (though I will), but he would most likely have been recording to tape. I bet he wasn't running onto it softly either

[e_o]

I haven't read that (though I will), but he would most likely have been recording to tape. I bet he wasn't running onto it softly either

yeah I think so

[studio dread]

I haven't read that (though I will), but he would most likely have been recording to tape. I bet he wasn't running onto it softly either

Yeah there have been interviews from king tubbys studio that talk about driving hard to tape.

I love the original scientist sound and i think his mixes sounded the fattest from the KT studio lot but from the limited amount of new stuff i've heard that he has enginered, i wasn't that impressed.

[Isturite]

@macc.... right on for all the info you've provided! I see you know what you're doing.

maybe you could help me with a problem... I produce in Ableton, and do 100% of my own sound design, most all of my drum samples are created with absynth 5 (FM8 for metallic sounds), then ran through some saturation/compression/eq etc... when needed... most of my bass and leads in massive/fm8...

I have a launchpad for my Dj'ing, which I use to do a sort of Live PA style mash-up for performance... I have done sets on small PA systems which sounds okay, but NEVER as good as the tracks all the Dj's are playing off of vinyl, cdj's, or even traktor/serato... my guess is that this is because my tracks aren't mastered, and i'm mixing loops versus whole songs...

is there ANY way to get better sound without mastering, i know Tipper does it... i've been working on my mixing but i feel like even if I became an audio engineer my live sound would never match vinyl.... every time i hear something different, but never from anybody who REALLY knows

I don't wanna just toss the launchpad and use vinyls or traktor... no offense to DJ's, I just like to do more than that, it's kinda boring and i feel like i might as well do it as an itunes playlist, im a musician not a dj

[macc]

Practice. Simple as that.

What sort of gain structuring do you have for your live thing? What sort of processing is applied on output?

Most importantly, do you spend as much time as possible getting the loops to work properly as a good mix (in the sonic sense, not DJ sense), as we've banged on about in this thread?

It all comes from the mix, whether it is a track or a live mashup. Having more at the last stage may/will help, but you'd be obliged to have mixed/engineered everything through that master output processing from the word go, to get the best out of it.

[erikus]

Now go and listen to Kind of Blue, and think about this while you're listening.

Sorry this is a massive aside.....

I read somewhere that amongst Miles Davis officianados Kind Of Blue is regarded as over produced - to much room reverb.
That made me laugh.
People love to sound knowledgable or snooty.
Macc sharing your info about music in general is absolutely the only way forward.
I think of Flea (Red Hot Chili Peppers bassist) who runs his own music school for kids in cali (silverlake conservatory) - putting back because of his passion and understanding in the importance in the ROLE of music in peoples lives.
Anyone who hasn't heard "Kind Of Blue" by the way - well I guess it's frowned on by the elite becasue it's kind of "accessible", harmonic, "easy listening" structured jazz.
But you know what - it was mostly imporvised (the whole 5 tracks) and sounds as fresh as a daisy every time. It's like a sonic toothbrush to the head! If you find yourself saying you're a "dubstep dj" or a "trance producer" or whatever all you're doing is limiting your outlook and others opinions of you.

I joined this board say that, I don't even really know what dubstep (so therefore nothing against it) is I just like good music and good production.

Superb thread.
Erik

[erikus]

Apologies but I was responding to part of this thread on page 5 by Macc "Postby macc » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:32 am" - newbies....tut tut

[macc]

Hello Erik

Kind Of Blue was really quite daring for its time, being the first widely recogised modal recording (though that stuff was brewing for a while before). Only the fact it's so well done, has his name on it (or it might never have been released) and has subsequently sold 80 squillion copies that anyone can dare call it accessible. These people are morons looking from the wrong perspective, looking in hindsight.

I'm not sure that that many people think it was overproduced - it's a fairly typical Columbia recording of the time. Lots of the room in it. Check out Nefertiti if you like that (which I do). Most spacious record I think I have ever heard ('Madness'!). I'll stop before I start harping on about Tony Williams

Flea is incredible too btw, irrespective of what the Chillis have turned into. As an odd coincidence in light of the Davis comments, have you heard Flea play trumpet? He's a bad bad motherfucker on that horn, seriously.

[erikus]

case in point: 90s reggae vs. Sean Paul records from the last 5 years. reggae records from the 90s may be a bit quieter, sure, but you turn them up and BLAM! the drums are banging. meanwhile, the recent crossover reggae... the records are pressed WAY hotter, the drums (and master) are limited like crazy, and sure the record sounds louder--but it doesn't have the impact that a record from 15 years ago does.

That's because the kids just listen to ringtones and don't go to the Notting Hill carnival - ie one sounds good on your phone and one sounds good on an 8k rig (which Tricky says goes boom boom).
Don't even get me started on vocoder/autotune.

[erikus]

Hello Erik

Kind Of Blue was really quite daring for its time, being the first widely recogised modal recording (though that stuff was brewing for a while before). Only the fact it's so well done, has his name on it (or it might never have been released) and has subsequently sold 80 squillion copies that anyone can dare call it accessible. These people are morons looking from the wrong perspective, looking in hindsight.

I'm not sure that that many people think it was overproduced - it's a fairly typical Columbia recording of the time. Lots of the room in it. Check out Nefertiti if you like that (which I do). Most spacious record I think I have ever heard ('Madness'!). I'll stop before I start harping on about Tony Williams

Flea is incredible too btw, irrespective of what the Chillis have turned into. As an odd coincidence in light of the Davis comments, have you heard Flea play trumpet? He's a bad bad motherfucker on that horn, seriously.

I certainly don't think it's over produced in any way - I'd take this and The Caution Horses by the Cowboy Junkies to my desert island (and I'm a house DJ he says pigeonholing himself). I think what "they mean" (sources un referenced) is that the room sound is a bit "nice" in that way that reverb can be. (btw easy listening sounds too derogatory - simply mean that it's very easy to listen to - obviously this record was after bebop or ragtime, for example, which - unless you have no rhythm or soul is totally easy to listen to). Fair point though about accessibility - I think there are some classic phrases on there (especially intros and reprises) that aren't avant garde in any way - very simple repetition like all good pop music - which tie the whole thing together and fool one into thinking it's simple, but I must have heard the record 500 times through and still can't pick the timing or phrasing of every line esp in some of the solos so .....that's why it's a desert island disc!

Tony Williams.....bang on as much as you like mate. I saw him at the Glasgow jazz fest in a tribute to Miles (with Herbie) around 1990. Wow.

Flea's first instrument was the trumpet I beleive so he should be good by now. I know a lot of people who think the chilis are watered down now - and when you compare Snow to say "I want to party on your pussy baby" then you can understand that but having grown up with them (fan since 1987) I can understand the progression. I mean I'm not as angry as I used to be so ... Mostly I think these are the same people who refuse to see progress (I don't necessarily mena better - just evolution of sound and influences) - the same people who demand "In the City" at a Paul Weller concert....

Finally finished the thread - should be distilled into 4/5 pages to get rid of this kind of side waffle

[macc]

I just got a PM from someone and thought maybe I'd chuck this in here... seemed relevant. Names removed to protect the innocent

got one question regarding mastering plz:

do u adjust the vol levels of a plug in order to compens8 for the peak level it raises?

let me try to explain it more pragmatic:

*snip*

The short answer is that ideally, when working with any processing at all (mixing, mastering, whatever), it is a very very good idea to match the perceived level before and after the processor. Then you can bypass bypass bypass the processor and hear only what the processor is doing, and not be tricked by the level difference. You can then make a true judgment as to whether the processing change is actually good, or if it is just different. Level matching is the only way to know for sure. Keep the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain, and make sure that everything you are doing is better - not just louder. Then make the final gain boost with the limiter.

This level-matching thing is probably the single most important thing about any processing, in the world, ever, ever

Forget the numbers - the only number that really matters is 0dB. By reading your message, you are worrying very much about the numbers. You don't have to say 'hopefully' - you should leave more room so you don't have to 'hope' it doesn't clip The simple fact is, the numbers will change when you do anything. If you have plenty of headroom and suddenly you do a bit of eq and it is clipping like crazy, you know you have done too much. If it goes up 1dB, who gives a shit? Does it sound better?

Again: keep the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain, and make sure that everything you are doing is better - not just louder. Then make the final gain boost with the limiter.

If you're using analogue gear then things can be a little different, depending on using gain stages for their tone/sound and how the overall gain structure is - but you still level match the before/after to assess that you are actually doing good things and not just making it louder.

[Depone]

I just got a PM from someone and thought maybe I'd chuck this in here... seemed relevant. Names removed to protect the innocent

got one question regarding mastering plz:

do u adjust the vol levels of a plug in order to compens8 for the peak level it raises?

let me try to explain it more pragmatic:

*snip*

The short answer is that ideally, when working with any processing at all (mixing, mastering, whatever), it is a very very good idea to match the perceived level before and after the processor. Then you can bypass bypass bypass the processor and hear only what the processor is doing, and not be tricked by the level difference. You can then make a true judgment as to whether the processing change is actually good, or if it is just different. Level matching is the only way to know for sure. Keep the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain, and make sure that everything you are doing is better - not just louder. Then make the final gain boost with the limiter.

This level-matching thing is probably the single most important thing about any processing, in the world, ever, ever

Forget the numbers - the only number that really matters is 0dB. By reading your message, you are worrying very much about the numbers. You don't have to say 'hopefully' - you should leave more room so you don't have to 'hope' it doesn't clip The simple fact is, the numbers will change when you do anything. If you have plenty of headroom and suddenly you do a bit of eq and it is clipping like crazy, you know you have done too much. If it goes up 1dB, who gives a shit? Does it sound better?

Again: keep the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain, and make sure that everything you are doing is better - not just louder. Then make the final gain boost with the limiter.

If you're using analogue gear then things can be a little different, depending on using gain stages for their tone/sound and how the overall gain structure is - but you still level match the before/after to assess that you are actually doing good things and not just making it louder.

Yeah i do this with pretty much everything! especially some compressors have 'autogain' at say +4db rang in by default, so to the untrained ear you think.. "wow louder! Better!"

[macc]

Autoanything =

[Depone]

Autoanything =

what?!? not even autofellatio?

[SunkLo]

This level-matching thing is probably the single most important thing about any processing, in the world, ever, ever

[nefarious]

Macc, seriously, the first couple and last few pages of this are literally so amazing I can't thank you enough... I'm glad to say that I have already been doing some of the things you advise, but what you were saying about keeping the perceived level the same the whole way through the chain etc. has just given me a proper "eureka" moment - THANK YOU!!

[macc]

A pleasure!

Autoanything =

what?!? not even autofellatio?

I haven't had the necessary ribs removed