Writing songs

[Cata-Kai]

Hey guys, new here. I just came to get some help when writing music. I can usually come up with a pretty decent melody for songs, but I can never get out of that melody per say. All I do is repeat that melody over and over while adding things over it and taking things out. I'm wondering how I can move on to a different chord progression for different parts of the song. I've tried just straight up throwing a new chord progression after a snare buildup/other type of buildup, but it just doesn't sound right. My ear always wants to return to the same melody bassline that has been playing throughout the whole song. Is this usually the case for dubstep? Does the bassline/main melody stay constant throughout the song? If not, how can I switch it up?

Thanks

[Cata-Kai]

Here's an example of what I mean, http://soundcloud.com/dj-cata-kai/trance-test.

I have the bass melody going and going and it's the same throughout the entire piece, but I want to change it up, I just don't know how haha

[Cata-Kai]

Help?

[hurlingdervish]

ahh this reminds me of my friend who ive been teaching production

he tells me "Ive read all these books on music theory, and they tell me how to write the notes, but not how to write music"
he wants to be taught how to have musical ideas, not how to interpret them, which an instruction cannot directly teach you ...

however...

if you learn other peoples songs, or learn to improvise on an instrument you can start to notice what works. simple things like "if you make a mistake that sounds good, repeat it so no one knows you fucked up" can turn into "avant garde masterpiece" if you are able to notice them. so the number one goal you should have is improving your perception of melodies.

if you go the way of learning, or in the case of most producers who dont know any instruments, or analyzing other peoples tunes, listen to a lot of genres. sample a lot of genres. see why that guitarist can repeat the same thing 100 times with different intonation and still be impressive/expressive with it. listen to a pianist repeat the same chord progression with different variations.
then when you know what you want to hear sounds like, its just a matter of translating it. you could do this with no musical knowledge by trial and error, or you could some basic chords and scales to mess around with and start there

also...try downloading midi files of songs that you know. tear them apart and replace each instrument with your own. see how they interact

[hurlingdervish]

one more very important tip:

A simple melody can sound more exotic depending on the chords that play beneath it

there are songs that are literally like one note melodies, but the chords beneath that note change how you hear it. it could be the icing on the cake or the splinter in your thumb so to speak.

[Danger Co]

So you have a melody sounds that good...what you can do is drop certain notes out of that melody and replace that 'space' with something else(percussion, sample whatever), or make multiple slightly different melodies from the base melody you start with - so you end up with say 3 variations of the original. Don't underestimate the power of velocity either - even if you just have the 1 melody that you began with, change it up with slightly different filter/FX settings via velocity etc.

Listen to Distance IMO he's a champ at keeping his melodies fresh

[Cata-Kai]

So you have a melody sounds that good...what you can do is drop certain notes out of that melody and replace that 'space' with something else(percussion, sample whatever), or make multiple slightly different melodies from the base melody you start with - so you end up with say 3 variations of the original. Don't underestimate the power of velocity either - even if you just have the 1 melody that you began with, change it up with slightly different filter/FX settings via velocity etc.

Listen to Distance IMO he's a champ at keeping his melodies fresh

Is this what pretty much every song is? Just a variation of the beginning melody over time?

My problem is that I can write different melodies in the same key, but when I throw one in after another it doesn't sound right at all. I've had this problem for a long time. I guess I can never link them together without it making sound really awkward.

[hurlingdervish]

my problem is that I can write different melodies in the same key, but when I throw one in after another it doesn't sound right at all. I've had this problem for a long time.

thats because scales still have tones that will clash over each other. it might do you good to learn about intervals,
as in what a third, fourth, fifth etc sound like over the root note.

the only "easy way out" here is repeatedly stabbing into the dark until something fits, which is much more frustrating then taking a couple of days to learn more imo

[Cata-Kai]

I do know about intervals. I took music theory class, so I understand chord progressions and that kinda stuff.

Say you choose a 8 chord chord progression. If you end your verse on the sixth chord and you still have 2 more chords to go, does that mean you start the chorus on the 7th chord of the progression or do you write a completely new progression for the chorus?

[hurlingdervish]

I do know about intervals. I took music theory class, so I understand chord progressions and that kinda stuff.

Say you choose a 8 chord chord progression. If you end your verse on the sixth chord and you still have 2 more chords to go, does that mean you start the chorus on the 7th chord of the progression or do you write a completely new progression for the chorus?

alright cool, you never know if producers know those things or want to learn, or are scared away thinking theyll have to read sheet music or something

about the chord progression: that depends entirely up to to your taste
if you really want those last two chords, you can make a great energy build by having that last bit of time before the next part of the song play those two chords along with a drum fill or sound effect etc. you can loop that last bit and turn it into a new part of the song altogether, by just switching up the rhythm of how they are played or whatever you want really.

Try to imagine what you expect to hear as the song transitions. You may not need a new progression at all, just new emphasis or giving it more space. Sometimes if you think of two parts of the songs as their own entity (verse and chorus for instance) you may end up spend too much time listening to one part as you write for it, that you forget the context and feeling of the song. When this happens it can either be a blessing or curse, the listener either gets lifted to a new realm, or smacked in the face with a new song when the chorus comes in. I think this is what is happening to you? If you're emphasizing different chords without hitting the root enough it may sound like a different key entirely, especially if you use some dissonant tones in the melody. For example, Your song is in G minor but the chorus starts on a C minor chord, since C minor and G minor scales share a fair amount of notes, you could end up accidentally switching to the C minor key by emphasizing it too much. A good remedy for this is before you start writing for the next part which you may already have a bassline or idea for, listen to the previous part every so often.

Since this is production after all, also try to think with sampling techniques as well. You may already have the chorus, but you think its a verse. In which case you could get away with slicing recorded audio from the melodic part of the chorus and triggering it for the downtime in between choruses. Or vice versa you could slice the verse up re arrange it into a chorus

[Basic A]

I stuggled with this for a long time, really still do... Something Ive been doing lately is practicing progression using single instruments...

Try this.

Open up a piano sound of some sort and get a melody going with it, and then make it go somewhere. Write a whole 128 bar piano solo that goes from one end of the scale to the other and back, and jsut focus on making everything flow smooth in isolation. Youll learn loads this way that can be applied to your tunes.

Benga talks about how he tries to make each element a track in itsself, he mentions just playing hihats and percussion solo and making it interesitng in and of itsself, and doing that with everything, making sure they groove with each other the whole time. Its great advice. Youd be surprised how much smoother transitions can be if they are preceded by a change in the hats and a roll on the snare and accompanied by a change of the mid percussion and ect ect. When you listen to music, you hear the whole, not its parts, even if mentally you pick em apart. If youve become attached to a set pattern, changing one part of it and not the others can sound funny at times.

Also, my last, and single most important piece of advice I can ever give anyone who wants to learn about progressing dubstep tracks, this part is crucial!!! .... Listen to Ganja White Night, over and over again for months. Progression will get alot clearer when you do.

[SunkLo]

If your problem is developing cohesive melodies you can use a few things to tie them together. Keep the same or similar chord progression, rhythmic pattern, tonal flavor, etc. If you're looking for lines that flow together well, they have to have something in common. Assess your material from an abstract point of view; What is the previous melody's role? How does it go about doing that and in what style? Mute the melody line and try to come up with other variation that follows the same ideas. If you need to, put it on your ipod and hum along while you do something. Your brain will subconsciously fill in spontaneous melodies and when you've got something you like record it and throw it in.

[Phigure]

this is what i tend to struggle with most

it takes me months to write a tune...

what's helped me is just recording myself "beatboxing" for 3-4 minutes... when i do that i can naturally come up with creative melodies and rhythms, but when i sit in front of the stupid grid in my DAW my brain freezes up.

[alphacat]

FWIW having deadlines and limitations has been the best thing to happen to my songwriting. It's easy to get lost in all the "what-if's" stuff and not want to commit to any one arrangement or progression - but when you have to have it done by a certain date, and when you don't have 8 million choices handy in your gear or can only use a handful of sounds... then things suddenly start to write themselves.

To this end, the sample pack contests here (and now the VST contest that just had its debut) are like boot camp for songwriting: you know what you have to do (in this case, vary up your melodic progressions) - and you just jump in headfirst and do it. There's a certain safety in having it be a contest too, you know? Because it's all for fun anyway, so you can try some shit out, see how it works, if it didn't no big deal, try again next time and make sure it's fun, because when it stops being fun...



Phigure, some day soon there's gonna be direct brainlink to our DAWs; until then, there's the old school version of that - psychedelic drugs.

[Danger Co]

So you have a melody sounds that good...what you can do is drop certain notes out of that melody and replace that 'space' with something else(percussion, sample whatever), or make multiple slightly different melodies from the base melody you start with - so you end up with say 3 variations of the original. Don't underestimate the power of velocity either - even if you just have the 1 melody that you began with, change it up with slightly different filter/FX settings via velocity etc.

Listen to Distance IMO he's a champ at keeping his melodies fresh

Is this what pretty much every song is? Just a variation of the beginning melody over time?

My problem is that I can write different melodies in the same key, but when I throw one in after another it doesn't sound right at all. I've had this problem for a long time. I guess I can never link them together without it making sound really awkward.

I haven't heard your sounds but try real simple melodies over complexity, should make it easier. Personally I wouldn't throw a different melody one after another, but just switch a note every so often e.g 1 note higher octacve or sharps/flats every now and then, should freshen up the melody over the track.

[gravity]

been sodding about on a piano a lot recently, and ive picked a few simple things up that i overlooked just using a mouse. some of them might help...

e.g. when you are playing chords or a melody in a scale, if you mess about with some different notes from the same scale but in a higher or lower octave, you can kinda switch the 'anchor' back and forth, leaving you free to add variation without losing the drive

certain key changes will contain many of the same notes, which makes it really easy to change key. however, this can often end up sounding like you haven't changed key (can be good or bad i guess)

changing to a slightly different type of scale (e.g. from a natural minor to a harmonic minor) can make it easier to change to certain keys that otherwise seem awkward, or can also just be used for some variation. just make sure you change from the right notes in the previous scale.

make use of inversions to get out of keys or even just for some variations. in case you don't know an inversion is a chord with the note in a different order. for example a c minor chord would be c-d#-g, with c as the root. a c minor first inversion would be d#-g-c, and second inversion would be g-c-d#

errr, cant think of too much more atm, although theres loads. get mucking about on an instrument, you will start to notice stuff about how it all works.