We All Know That We Are An Amalgamation of Trillions ofCells

[magma]

Our cells cooperate to provide enough sensory awareness to let our body survive in its habitat, consciousness is a bi-product of having such a complicated structure of nerve cells... we require consciousness to interpret all our senses most efficiently and hence survive, therefore we have it.

[honey-d]

I think the "soul" that we see in trillions of cells is the same "soul" that we don't see in trillions of galaxies

[WhosZena]

Conciousnesses could be shifted anywhere, like your hand, if you think about it long enough.
You become the hand etc.

Most of the time we miss the cue

Wouldn't even say im concious 2% of the time..

[2manynoobs]

Conciousnesses could be shifted anywhere, like your hand, if you think about it long enough.
You become the hand etc.

Most of the time we miss the cue

Wouldn't even say im concious 2% of the time..

yeah that is true. consciousness is almost meditative, like your mind going blank, just sensing and feeling the world

[WhosZena]

Exactly, its only fully there in the moment, pure presence
Really doubt you could class it a physically fixed thing.

Sounds wacky but I feel as if humans are the least fully concious out of all living, possibly non-living things.

[Phigure]

i wouldn't say it's a result of ALL of them at once, just the network of neurons in our brain


but then again, i have a relatively boring, unimaginative, and materialistic view of the universe.

[BLAHBLAHJAH]

What's unimaginative about materialism?

[In The Shadows]

Conciousnesses could be shifted anywhere, like your hand, if you think about it long enough.
You become the hand etc.

Most of the time we miss the cue

Wouldn't even say im concious 2% of the time..

from Oxford Dictionary..

consciousness

noun

*
1 [mass noun] the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings: she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later
*
2 a person's awareness or perception of something: her acute consciousness of Luke's presence
*
the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.





"state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings" you are only in this state for 2% of your life? Waking life or are we including sleeping here? Because if we are just talking about awake time then you are barely alive tbh. I think your definition of consciousness is somewhat different from its general meaning. Consciousness requires life, a non living thing is by definition unconscious, that might be a bit of an unspiritual, boring thing to say but its true unless you want to completely reclassify the term consciousness.

If one were to be able to shift their 'consciousness' (in your definition of the term) outside of their body, would it still be able to see and hear, taste etc even though it has no physical body and hence no sense organs? Would it have access to your personality, memory and emotions even though it is no longer attached to your brain where these things are created and stored?

To answer yes to any of the above is, in my opinion, is to anthropomorphize the human soul/spirit if you will. It figures that our physical form has zero impact on who we are, what we think and how we experience the world, which couldnt be further from the truth. to answer no to them all leaves you in a position where you have this aspect called consciousness that has absolutely no attributes of a conscious entity, and is completely unable to be aware of anything.

If the spirit/soul does not need eyes to see, or a brain to think and remember then why do people lose their sight when they lose their eyes? and why does a labotomy have an effect on your congative powers? As romantic a notion as it is, it just doesnt fit when you really think about it.

[the acid never lies]

What's unimaginative about materialism?

indeed-y

[hayze99]

Consciousness is a result - maybe even a side-effect, of all our cells working together.

[magma]

Consciousness is a result - maybe even a side-effect, of all our cells working together.

Word.

We have it because eventually, an organism that's trying to survive whilst moving around in a changing environment is going to need to be conscious of its place in it.

Lichens don't need to be conscious. Squirrels do.

[Plasmic aka Hanlo]

There is no "one cell to rule them all", all of our cells form a community that thinks and acts together, simultaneously, it is this community that we refer to as, "consciousness".

Snypa has it right here, our conciousness is actually a community of neurons all talking to each other simultaneously. All neurons in the brain are gathering data from other neurons and then sending this data out to thousands of other neurons. Consciousness for humans is hard to define but it allows us to tap into our long term memory, mentally juggle previous experiences, weigh out which experience was the most beneficial previously, and then act accordingly. If you can imagine the voice in your head making decisions every day - this is an ongoing process which is reacting to the decision making areas of the brain (prefrontal cortex, anterior cingulate cortex) sooo fast for human understanding that it SEEMS to be you consciously making the decisions. Each decision you make is constantly being fedback into these areas, constantly updating the pros and cons. Most animals like mammals, birds & reptiles have the ability to mentally juggle these decisions aswell & act accordingly. So how are we more conscious than other animals?

In The Shadows - these cases where transplant patients feel the 'souls' of the donors could never happen. The neurons in organs & limbs are ones which are made to sense the chemical environment (inside and out) which relay the information to the brain, the other neurons are the effectors which descend from the brain to the organs which cause them to do things e.g. contract. The brain is the centre which integrates all the information from the rest of the body: how much salt is in the blood, what position your body is in; what position in the room you are in, how warm it is, what you feel about the person in front of you etc etc. As you said if you remove all the limbs your soul is still there.THE only explanation I can think of for that phenomena is if the donor had high (or low) levels of a hormone left in the limb relative to the receiver, then this could effect the patients behaviour for a short time. Testosterone they could be angry, agitated; dopamine - they could feel amazing, happier; cortisol - they could feel more stressed, anxious.

It is undeniable that our brain is responsible for our conscious, it's scientific fact yo!

[hayze99]

Consciousness is a result - maybe even a side-effect, of all our cells working together.

Word.

We have it because eventually, an organism that's trying to survive whilst moving around in a changing environment is going to need to be conscious of its place in it.

Lichens don't need to be conscious. Squirrels do.

The thing is, consciousness relies a lot on the free will argument. If our actions are deterministic/reactionary, than our consciousness, as we know it, is simply spectating, rather than acting. That spectating - our awareness of our own consciousness - is the side-effect.

I kind of lost track of where I was going with that.

[noam]

Consciousness is a result - maybe even a side-effect, of all our cells working together.

Word.

We have it because eventually, an organism that's trying to survive whilst moving around in a changing environment is going to need to be conscious of its place in it.

Lichens don't need to be conscious. Squirrels do.

The thing is, consciousness relies a lot on the free will argument. If our actions are deterministic/reactionary, than our consciousness, as we know it, is simply spectating, rather than acting. That spectating - our awareness of our own consciousness - is the side-effect.

I kind of lost track of where I was going with that.

i think of it as a snowball effect - the snow is the external factors which become ingratiated within the snowball itself. the snowball is nothing but a collection of individual snowflakes but the collection when seen as a whole is then something different.

determinism however seems far too simplistic to be viable, theoretically with the right information you could postulate that we would be able to predict future events and actions with starting accuracy - does it seem right that we should be able to do this?

how do we explain the formation of entirely original and unique thoughts? arguably the arts are the prime example of a medium by which we can express LACK of determinism??

i also think of it in a way similar to a electro-magnetic field - you wire things the right way and you have a 'new' type of energy the is in some respect beyond the sum of its parts

[hayze99]

Consciousness is a result - maybe even a side-effect, of all our cells working together.

Word.

We have it because eventually, an organism that's trying to survive whilst moving around in a changing environment is going to need to be conscious of its place in it.

Lichens don't need to be conscious. Squirrels do.

The thing is, consciousness relies a lot on the free will argument. If our actions are deterministic/reactionary, than our consciousness, as we know it, is simply spectating, rather than acting. That spectating - our awareness of our own consciousness - is the side-effect.

I kind of lost track of where I was going with that.

i think of it as a snowball effect - the snow is the external factors which become ingratiated within the snowball itself. the snowball is nothing but a collection of individual snowflakes but the collection when seen as a whole is then something different.

determinism however seems far too simplistic to be viable, theoretically with the right information you could postulate that we would be able to predict future events and actions with starting accuracy - does it seem right that we should be able to do this?

how do we explain the formation of entirely original and unique thoughts? arguably the arts are the prime example of a medium by which we can express LACK of determinism??

i also think of it in a way similar to a electro-magnetic field - you wire things the right way and you have a 'new' type of energy the is in some respect beyond the sum of its parts

Determinism is the very simple way of putting it. And I mean it in a way that's very very hard to distinguish from free will in any case.

I'm talking about billions of different events determining each millisecond of the thought process - a true testament to the brains incredible power. I think if we had machines which had the processing power to - not only collate these events, but figure out the events themselves (a feat which our minds are simply not capable of) maybe we could look into the future - but this is unrealistic. Remember the whole, I'll give you a penny this month and double it, and by the end of the month you'll have millions of dollars. The same thing occurs with the first wink of thought in your brain as you're developing; every second will spawn millions of thoughts built upon thoughts.

Original and unique thoughts can still be explained by this determinism. The ridiculously simplified version of an artistic thought could be:

(Previous pieces of art seen and appreciated) + (mathematics) + (emotional variables) + (physical conditions: temperature, etc) + the billions upon billions of things your brain contains which I could not possibly conceive of = your freshly baked artistic thought.

These different factors would relate to every single thought and decision your brain makes. Why did you choose to take the bus instead of the tube? The almost infinite formula came to that dice-roll. The result of the previous one is a heavily contributing factor to the next one adding to the snowball.

The fact that I said that our brains could not pick out the different events, only add them up is where the whole synergy in electromagnetic energy comes into play. All these thoughts build up on each other until something amazing comes out.

This basically makes our lives massive Rube-Goldberg machines, set out in stone since the universe started - along with everything else.

But now we have quantum physics...

[noam]

Determinism is the very simple way of putting it. And I mean it in a way that's very very hard to distinguish from free will in any case.

I'm talking about billions of different events determining each millisecond of the thought process - a true testament to the brains incredible power. I think if we had machines which had the processing power to - not only collate these events, but figure out the events themselves (a feat which our minds are simply not capable of) maybe we could look into the future - but this is unrealistic. Remember the whole, I'll give you a penny this month and double it, and by the end of the month you'll have millions of dollars. The same thing occurs with the first wink of thought in your brain as you're developing; every second will spawn millions of thoughts built upon thoughts.

Original and unique thoughts can still be explained by this determinism. The ridiculously simplified version of an artistic thought could be:

(Previous pieces of art seen and appreciated) + (mathematics) + (emotional variables) + (physical conditions: temperature, etc) + the billions upon billions of things your brain contains which I could not possibly conceive of = your freshly baked artistic thought.

These different factors would relate to every single thought and decision your brain makes. Why did you choose to take the bus instead of the tube? The almost infinite formula came to that dice-roll. The result of the previous one is a heavily contributing factor to the next one adding to the snowball.

The fact that I said that our brains could not pick out the different events, only add them up is where the whole synergy in electromagnetic energy comes into play. All these thoughts build up on each other until something amazing comes out.

This basically makes our lives massive Rube-Goldberg machines, set out in stone since the universe started - along with everything else.

But now we have quantum physics...

the consequences of such a form of hard determinism are unappealing in certain ways are they not? lack of responsibilty for ones actions for a start - anyone with half an existential bone in their bodies will argue that ones decisions are down to oneself and not down to external factors entirely.

if we live in a closed system, where all future events are determined by the very first event (naturally, a problem in itself) then we are forced to reconsider everything about mans actions and the consequences of them - how can someone be considered guilty of a crime if they had no choice in committing it??

you could argue that the choices we make are a reflection of our internal desires coupled to the outside physical factors but that does little to incorporate a sense of justice or fairness in judging the morality of actions; in actual fact under such circumstances the only sensible way to look at things is without a moral compass at all. it seems irrational to create a system of chaos out of one of complete order; no morality (no law) from a system based on the fundamental idea that laws govern everything.

think about any situation where you need to make a decision: take 10 feasible options for a course of action and allow that some are more probable than others - would you allow that out of those 10 you are capable of choosing to act on either one, and this act was facilitated by but not entirely predicted by physical properties? this i suppose is one direct result of the quantum theory but does the quantum theory have any room for responsibility? is it simply a case of letting go of any idea of responsibility based on being able to act as a primary cause of your own actions?

[nousd]

Even though it appears that I make decisions that have a causative effect,
things (just) happen.
I'm happy deciding to do what happens.
This is my middle path...the is between illusory coulds.

[WhosZena]

Conciousnesses could be shifted anywhere, like your hand, if you think about it long enough.
You become the hand etc.

Most of the time we miss the cue

Wouldn't even say im concious 2% of the time..

from Oxford Dictionary..

consciousness

noun

*
1 [mass noun] the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings: she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later
*
2 a person's awareness or perception of something: her acute consciousness of Luke's presence
*
the fact of awareness by the mind of itself and the world.





"state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings" you are only in this state for 2% of your life? Waking life or are we including sleeping here? Because if we are just talking about awake time then you are barely alive tbh. I think your definition of consciousness is somewhat different from its general meaning. Consciousness requires life, a non living thing is by definition unconscious, that might be a bit of an unspiritual, boring thing to say but its true unless you want to completely reclassify the term consciousness.

If one were to be able to shift their 'consciousness' (in your definition of the term) outside of their body, would it still be able to see and hear, taste etc even though it has no physical body and hence no sense organs? Would it have access to your personality, memory and emotions even though it is no longer attached to your brain where these things are created and stored?

To answer yes to any of the above is, in my opinion, is to anthropomorphize the human soul/spirit if you will. It figures that our physical form has zero impact on who we are, what we think and how we experience the world, which couldnt be further from the truth. to answer no to them all leaves you in a position where you have this aspect called consciousness that has absolutely no attributes of a conscious entity, and is completely unable to be aware of anything.

If the spirit/soul does not need eyes to see, or a brain to think and remember then why do people lose their sight when they lose their eyes? and why does a labotomy have an effect on your congative powers? As romantic a notion as it is, it just doesnt fit when you really think about it.

I guess my definition of consciousness is distorted. When I say conscious I mean intentionally being fully aware of yourself/others within the moment.. five senses and all

Also, if you believe in the 'greater consciousness', is shows that all individual consciousnesses come from the same greater source therefore it would be possible to shift your fragment anywhere - and yes that could include personality, feelings, senses etc.

Towards your last question, Intentionally seeing through closed eyelids takes years of learning and still isn't as affective, although spontaneously it happens all the time - daydreaming, during sleep, through thought - these things aren't exclusive to the sighted
If seeing through 'spiritual eyelids' was as simple as seeing through physical eyes; it would be a physical part of the body, therefore defeating the object

Its fairly limited to say that "all consciousness happens within the physical body" in the same way its limited to say "all consciousness happens within the spiritual body"
A combination of both is the only possible way to live, and we are constantly merging between both.

[2manynoobs]

Even though it appears that I make decisions that have a causative effect,
things (just) happen.
I'm happy deciding to do what happens.
This is my middle path...the is between illusory coulds.

spot on!!!

[noam]

Even though it appears that I make decisions that have a causative effect,
things (just) happen.
I'm happy deciding to do what happens.
This is my middle path...the is between illusory coulds.

so you deny free will and find happiness in going with the flow

thats nice but dont you feel short changed? its no mystery that man has a concept of actually what it is to be 'free'

essentially relegating our ability to choose and make decisions to an illusion suggest someone played a cruel joke on us when they first 'woke up' and thought hey, maybe im responsible for what i actually do