the paradox of wub: monitors v woofers

[t0nes]

Here's a paradox:

Everyone says it's important to mix your tracks on serious studio monitors with even flat stable predictable frequency-response. Like giving your sound a careful clear-eyed up-close no-nonsense inspection. You can hear every little facet, etc etc blah.

ON THE OTHER HAND: It seems to me that a huge part of what makes dubstep and other bass music sound the way it does is not about having even flat "accurate" frequency response. It's about having giant woofers with massive bass that makes you shit your pants.

So this seems to me to be one of the central chalenges of producing bass music: To mix with precision and intelligence, you need to be using a flat "accurate" studio-monitor soundsystem. But to create tracks with that WUB WUB WOOMP, you need to understand how the sounds you hear on those monitors will ultimately sound when played on a seriously large-bassed system.

Which is really really difficult and confusing, right?! Over and over again, I find that sounds which seem fragile and quiet on my "accurate" flat-frequency-response monitors become startlingly gigantic when played on a serious system.

So... how do all of you dubstep geniuses out there deal with this? Mix on flat monitors and somehow magically learn which subtle bass noises will manifest which ways on serious systems? Or forget accuracy, mix on a big bassy woofy home-theater system of some kind, and feel the wub?

I should disclaim that my monitors are relatively cheap Behringers that probably cost $150 for the pair. On one hand, it seems like most "serious" monitor systems, especially the ones that incorporate large-ass woofers, cost like $1000+. On the other hand, let's get fucking real. You do not need $1000 speakers to make decent bass music, do you? That can't be right.

Any and all reactions, suggestions, feedback, and/or disses welcome.

=t0nes=

[major zero]

my suggestion would be learn to mixdown on regular monitor speakers. if you can get it sounding good on those, then it will hopefully sound even better on a bigger bass heavier rig

however one important thing any producer should know to is not to think of your speaker's sound as the 'true' sound. all after all, no set of speakers are the same and they will all colour music differently,

so when you have a finished tune, make sure to play it on as many different soundsystems as possible, from beefy car rigs to fisher price speakers. that way you can learn what sounds good on what

[samkablaam]

yeah, i dont think you're getting what the point of having accurate monitors is. mixing on accurate monitors (and more than one pair ideally) means that your tunes will sound good on the systems with fuck off huge bass bins.

if you mix on inaccurate monitors, then your mixes will sound the inverse of your monitors. naaaaaaa mean? if you have a huge bass bin balancing on your ikea desk, then you will turn your bass down to stop it blowing a hole in your face. and then when you listen to your track on normal speakers, there will be even less bass. get me?

you dont need $1000 speakers to make good music. but, you probably arent gonna mix it very well unless you do. altho, writing is completely different to mixing. if you write shit music and buy $1000 mons, then you will be that guy that writes shit music and owns $1000 mons.

[t0nes]

altho, writing is completely different to mixing.

That is absolutely true in traditional music. If you are writing on a five-line staff for a string quartet, then great, leave the mixing to the engineers. But for dubstep, for bass music, I don't think the separation is as clean-cut. Lots of the best dubstep is "compositionally" dull as hell. One melody and drum line repeated over and over with minor variations. What makes it awesome is the zany physio-acoustic details of the bass. That shit that makes your eyeballs wobble. So a lot of the sounds that are essential to dubstep and bass music only really work on fuck-off bassbins. You don't feel monitors in your eyeballs.

So there's this insane process of listening to these weak reedy basslines in monitors and imagining "will this wobble eyeballs effectively or not on a big system?" Sooo weird.

I mean, I get what you're saying though. I'm being a little deliberately contrarian here. :P

=T=

[jaimelee]

I do find there are massive difference from when creating on a sub than on monitors.
So my theory of which I use is this.
I have rigged up my monitors to a cheap 5.1 sound set with a subwoofer.
Then I can feel the bass as I work with the monitors.
I bit of both worlds is the best for me!

[macc]

Mixing on a rubbish system to second guess what it might sound like on a system is sort of like getting constantly drunk, so your minger girlfriend looks sexy all the time.



Anyway - knowing how something translates is the art of mixing, and of course mastering. But it's vital to be able to hear everything, no niceties or beer goggles. Learning the art of translation takes a long time, lots of mixes, and knowing your system very well. Knowing your system is absolutely imperative, and arguably the most important thing, but the better the system the more you can hear. There's also the room to consider, that has a *huuuuge* effect on the sound you hear, and is arguably as or even more important than the speakers you have.

I'd rather get know an accurate system than an inaccurate one. It opens up an extra level of potential, and it makes working extremely easy, and fast. After that, translation is a matter of practice.

[ketamine]

Mastering. /Thread.

[macc]

Disagree.

Mixing.

Don't lean on mastering too much. While a good ME can seemingly work miracles, one should strive to make it absolutely perfect. If you like what happens when your ME does their thang, do detailed level matched ABs and learn from it so they don't have to do so much next time. The overall quality of your sound both pre- and post-mastering will increase concomitantly. The sky's the limit

[ketamine]

^ Of course, mixing is the key Macc. But the OP’s problem (as I understood it) is having that mix translate equally across all platforms & mediums… Isn’t that exactly what Mastering is for?

[macc]

Mastering is to ensure and aid translation - not to create it. The more that is 'built in' at the mix stage, the less processing has to be done at mastering - always a good thing.

That's the ideal, anyway. Of course there are times (fairly regular) where one has to rework something fairly radically to both keep the artist's intent and make it translate at the same time... but there's a finite ceiling to the achievable quality with work like that. You can make it translate, but not necessarily make it sound properly great. If something already has a very good start then not only will making it translate be easier, but the final quality level will be that much higher.

I get the feeling I'm waffling a bit and not being very clear... again Just pointing out that ideally the ME's job is to check it translates, not to make it translate. A subtle distinction, but hopefully you see what I am getting at. If I go to the doctor for a check-up I want to walk out having been told I am fit and well, not with a carrier bag full of pills for umpteen different conditions.

[deadly_habit]

yea the less a qualified ME has to do to your tracks, the better your mixes are coming along and your ears as well.
good analogy with the doctor visit sir waffler
also should be said that some inconsistency that may be easier to pick up on a set of monitors and correct, may be blurred and lost on your "phat" speakers and then be magnified 10 fold on a club rig where it just sounds completely ass

[staticcast]

Here's a paradox:

Everyone says it's important to mix your tracks on serious studio monitors with even flat stable predictable frequency-response. Like giving your sound a careful clear-eyed up-close no-nonsense inspection. You can hear every little facet, etc etc blah.

ON THE OTHER HAND: It seems to me that a huge part of what makes dubstep and other bass music sound the way it does is not about having even flat "accurate" frequency response. It's about having giant woofers with massive bass that makes you shit your pants.

So this seems to me to be one of the central chalenges of producing bass music: To mix with precision and intelligence, you need to be using a flat "accurate" studio-monitor soundsystem. But to create tracks with that WUB WUB WOOMP, you need to understand how the sounds you hear on those monitors will ultimately sound when played on a seriously large-bassed system.

Which is really really difficult and confusing, right?! Over and over again, I find that sounds which seem fragile and quiet on my "accurate" flat-frequency-response monitors become startlingly gigantic when played on a serious system.

So... how do all of you dubstep geniuses out there deal with this? Mix on flat monitors and somehow magically learn which subtle bass noises will manifest which ways on serious systems? Or forget accuracy, mix on a big bassy woofy home-theater system of some kind, and feel the wub?

I should disclaim that my monitors are relatively cheap Behringers that probably cost $150 for the pair. On one hand, it seems like most "serious" monitor systems, especially the ones that incorporate large-ass woofers, cost like $1000+. On the other hand, let's get fucking real. You do not need $1000 speakers to make decent bass music, do you? That can't be right.

Any and all reactions, suggestions, feedback, and/or disses welcome.

=t0nes=

It's pretty simple really. Mix on a flat system - one which you "know" inside-out - and check your mixes on a system that simulates what you'd get in a club. If you can't afford another set of speakers, have a listen on your DJ headphones with a low-shelf boost on the master.

Actually, I find that a useful mixdown trick in general - stick a parametric EQ on the master and sweep a shallow boost across the frequency range. Obviously the emphasis will be out of whack, but your mix should still sound balanced, and often a 6dB boost at a certain frequency will flag up clashes that might otherwise have been obscured by your monstrous sub (or whatever).

[Johnst]

refreshing to see macc again

[t0nes]

Awesome, this all makes sense and is helpful.

I think at the end of the day my problem is that my monitors have lame bass-response. So I guess I need to decide whether to invest in some proper monitors or follow jaimelee's example of bootstrapping a random sub and faking it.

[wub]

I hate my production name sometimes.