the situation in egypt

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noam
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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by noam » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:39 pm

vulvavibration wrote:
noam wrote:^^^
where's your evidence/sources for this??

i missed out on about 3 days of news before i started taking note, is that generally well held then, that it was started by Muslim Brotherhood?
not true i was following this on different sources mainly al jazeera & bbc.
and from the beginning on the muslim brotherhood even took some distance from the protests as telling that they did not initate them but do support the movement which isreasonable imho.

then - i'm not a friend of the muslim brotherhood, but they said clearly wanting a democracy and democatic votes.
also they are indeed religiously driven but they are clearly NOT islamists. they are of course conservatives but it's not near a taliban-like party.

please excuse me, that was directed at Pkay not you, i typed it a while ago and didnt post it...

as it happens im watching bbc and not al jazeera and haven't heard any speculation that it was a protest started by the Muslim Brotherhood

either way, i dont think its feasible that you would have actions like this without input from one of the main govt opposition parties like Muslim Brotherhood

whether the whole episode is orchestrated by and solely in the interests of the Muslim Brotherhood is likely to be incorrect too

a political situation like this will have its roots running far and wide, to narrow the scope these roots to one party with one agenda is to completely blinker yourself to the situation

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:40 pm

vulvavibration wrote: haha?!

switzerland (genrally seen as one of the most democratic countries) has religious parties (christians)

almost every western country has catholic/protestant parties.
You're under the impression that the fallout from this will be a purely democratic venture.

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:42 pm

noam wrote:
vulvavibration wrote:
noam wrote:^^^
where's your evidence/sources for this??

i missed out on about 3 days of news before i started taking note, is that generally well held then, that it was started by Muslim Brotherhood?
not true i was following this on different sources mainly al jazeera & bbc.
and from the beginning on the muslim brotherhood even took some distance from the protests as telling that they did not initate them but do support the movement which isreasonable imho.

then - i'm not a friend of the muslim brotherhood, but they said clearly wanting a democracy and democatic votes.
also they are indeed religiously driven but they are clearly NOT islamists. they are of course conservatives but it's not near a taliban-like party.

please excuse me, that was directed at Pkay not you, i typed it a while ago and didnt post it...

as it happens im watching bbc and not al jazeera and haven't heard any speculation that it was a protest started by the Muslim Brotherhood

either way, i dont think its feasible that you would have actions like this without input from one of the main govt opposition parties like Muslim Brotherhood

whether the whole episode is orchestrated by and solely in the interests of the Muslim Brotherhood is likely to be incorrect too

a political situation like this will have its roots running far and wide, to narrow the scope these roots to one party with one agenda is to completely blinker yourself to the situation
i can agree to that to an extent. the civil unrest had to exist in order for the situation to exist in the first place. I think the Muslim Brotherthood has capitalized on it.

Much like in the US where the republicans capitalized on the anger towards democrats. This is basic politics and like you said it's hard to believe these actions would happen without the main opposition having some input

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by phrex » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:44 pm

pkay wrote:
vulvavibration wrote:
pkay wrote:
lloydnoise wrote:I don't know what's worse, the ideaology deflating as Mubarak is allowed until September to sort out his pars and quietly leave or the unbridled chaos (not to mention open door for foreign governmental meddling) that would follow a straight revolutionary ousting

either way, I feel for anyone living in the midsts of this madness right now
I'd be more concerned with the fact all this was started by the Muslim Brotherhood which will likely gain a lot in the political landscape of Egypt driving back human rights in Egypt decades.

This is why 19 year olds on twitter and facebook are fucking morons no matter what country they're in. They'll protest anything if their friends are showing up.
bullshit.

that is not at all true

If you think the Muslim Brotherhood didn't stoke this fire with all their might you're in fucking denial and need to stop watching al jazeera with the audio on.


i'm not ready to descuss with you as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
al jazeera is consedered as very democratic, with correspondents from UK, france, switzerland. they stand for human rights, democracy and freedom of speach...


what the fuck am i talking anyway: have you been watching al jazeera at all? then you wouldn't have said that in the first place.

If you support the Muslim Brotherhood as a political entity then you are simply a bad human being. Religion has no place in the ruling of human beings in the 21st century.... especially in a country as progressive as Egypt.
lol - that's someone saying whos country prints on money ''in god we trust''


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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by badger » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:45 pm

pkay wrote:The Muslim Brotherhood is the main opposition claiming voter fraud/puppet regime as they lost a lot of power in Egypt over the last election.

They have the most to gain from political chaos in Egypt.
so you're basing it on who has most to gain and absolutely no evidence

top work sherlock :D: every reporting i've seen of this has said that the muslim brotherhood has very little to do with the protests, if anything at all

so yeah, you're not doing very well at not letting your prejudices get in the way of sensible judgement
pkay wrote:You're under the impression that the fallout from this will be a purely democratic venture.
that's another issue entirely but most commentators think the muslim brotherhood is unlikely to have that much input in whatever happens afterwards. that all remains to be seen but it could up badly whichever side(s) is/are involved

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by noam » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:52 pm

heard a report of one egyptian protestor claiming the protest was started by the 'egyptian youth - muslim brotherhood, young leftists' and young egyptians who were just angry with Mubarak and his regime

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:53 pm

badger wrote:
pkay wrote:The Muslim Brotherhood is the main opposition claiming voter fraud/puppet regime as they lost a lot of power in Egypt over the last election.

They have the most to gain from political chaos in Egypt.
so you're basing it on who has most to gain and absolutely no evidence

top work sherlock :D: every reporting i've seen of this has said that the muslim brotherhood has very little to do with the protests, if anything at all

so yeah, you're not doing very well at not letting your prejudices get in the way of sensible judgement
Believe it or not Badger, some of us had opinions on this situation prior to 5-7 days ago when it popped up on the local newscast.

You call it prejudices, I call it paying attention to world politics prior to last week.

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by phrex » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:00 pm

pkay wrote:
badger wrote:
pkay wrote:The Muslim Brotherhood is the main opposition claiming voter fraud/puppet regime as they lost a lot of power in Egypt over the last election.

They have the most to gain from political chaos in Egypt.
so you're basing it on who has most to gain and absolutely no evidence

top work sherlock :D: every reporting i've seen of this has said that the muslim brotherhood has very little to do with the protests, if anything at all

so yeah, you're not doing very well at not letting your prejudices get in the way of sensible judgement
Believe it or not Badger, some of us had opinions on this situation prior to 5-7 days ago when it popped up on the local newscast.

You call it prejudices, I call it paying attention to world politics prior to last week.

fox news? -q-
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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:03 pm

vulvavibration wrote:
pkay wrote:
badger wrote:
pkay wrote:The Muslim Brotherhood is the main opposition claiming voter fraud/puppet regime as they lost a lot of power in Egypt over the last election.

They have the most to gain from political chaos in Egypt.
so you're basing it on who has most to gain and absolutely no evidence

top work sherlock :D: every reporting i've seen of this has said that the muslim brotherhood has very little to do with the protests, if anything at all

so yeah, you're not doing very well at not letting your prejudices get in the way of sensible judgement
Believe it or not Badger, some of us had opinions on this situation prior to 5-7 days ago when it popped up on the local newscast.

You call it prejudices, I call it paying attention to world politics prior to last week.

fox news? -q-
I have family in Israel, Syria, and Lebanon. I have them send me their english speaking newspapers usually weekly and I send them our foreign language newspapers.

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phrex
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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by phrex » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:06 pm

what a coinsidence i'm syrian...

where in syria?
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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by wub » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:10 pm

noam wrote:^^^
where's your evidence/sources for this??
Some of the team members I manage are based in Cairo. Since Saturday-ish they've been offline as far as DSL connections go, and have been using 14.4 dial up from their homes to keep me in the loop. They've also had curfews imposed on them keeping them off the streets at certain times.

It's been impacting my work considerably as the leftover that they would normally be handling, I have to distribute amongst the rest of my European team.


But a few more spreadsheets is a small price to pay vs. political revolution (of sorts) in another country.

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:11 pm

vulvavibration wrote:what a coinsidence i'm syrian...

where in syria?
Have a cousin who teaches in Aleppo, but he's from Lebanon.

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by phrex » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:22 pm

pkay wrote:
vulvavibration wrote:what a coinsidence i'm syrian...

where in syria?
Have a cousin who teaches in Aleppo, but he's from Lebanon.
i'm from aleppo. what english newspaper is it?
the newspapers on syria suck!

they write what the governments wants them to write.
Legend4ry wrote:Well I am still living in that haze that dubstep is about a dark room with a big system, peoples with their heads down and trigger fingers in the air.
forthcoming 12", spring/summer 2015:
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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:38 pm

vulvavibration wrote:
pkay wrote:
vulvavibration wrote:what a coinsidence i'm syrian...

where in syria?
Have a cousin who teaches in Aleppo, but he's from Lebanon.
i'm from aleppo. what english newspaper is it?
the newspapers on syria suck!

they write what the governments wants them to write.

Syria Times is what I saw most over the years. Love how orchestrated it is lol. Being from outside the country it's actually kinda funny to read. But i think they stopped printing it a few years back.

Most of what I get from over there comes from Lebanon as most of my family is from there/israel.

I swear we've had this conversation before a while back

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by alphacat » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:20 pm

Amidst the chaos, a ray of light...

NYBooks.com wrote:

Saving Alexandria

Ingrid D. Rowland

Image
Alexandrians join hands to protect the library.


Located near the site of its ancient predecessor, in the heart of historical Alexandria, the remarkable Bibliotheca Alexandrina, the new Library of Alexandria, which opened in 2002, has been uncomfortably close to the turmoil that now wracks Egypt, and especially Egypt’s cities. First a suicide bomber attacked one of Alexandria’s Coptic churches on New Year’s Eve, killing 21 Egyptian Christians and injuring a hundred (including several Muslims worshipping at the mosque across the street). Now, for the past week, tens of thousands of young Egyptians have taken to the city’s streets, calling for more freedom, more jobs, lower prices, and democracy, unfazed by a harsh government crackdown and episodes of violence in which some three dozen Alexandrians have been killed. So it was a great relief to read the message “To our friends around the world” from Ismail Serageldin, the director of the Library, who reports that when unrest broke out on Friday, a cordon of young people rushed to surround the Library complex (which includes conference halls and a planetarium) and protect it from vandalism.

Serageldin’s message specifies “young people” rather than “students” because not all of these guardian angels were enrolled at the University of Alexandria across the street; some were Library employees, some were demonstrators, some may simply have been neighbors for whom the Library has become an essential symbol of Egypt, or perhaps of civilization in general. In any event, the move to protect the Library—as with similar efforts by protesters in Cairo to protect the Egyptian Museum after a group of looters smashed display cases and destroyed two mummies—is not only a matter of guarding the books and other splendid collections housed beneath its circular roof: it is a matter of guarding an idea.

The Library of Alexandria has burned twice before, once, partially, when Julius Caesar made his landing in Egypt in 48 BCE, and again, with devastating effect, in late antiquity. The first burning was probably a mistake, the second the result of religious fanaticism, most probably the same fanaticism that killed the Alexandrian mathematician Hypatia in 415 CE for daring, as a woman, to profess philosophy. Hypatia’s murderers called themselves Christians, but their real creed was an ancient cult of destruction that precedes every known religion, every state, every political system. We pin that cult now on the Germanic tribe of Vandals who sacked Rome in the year 455, but we can read its violent traces just as clearly in prehistoric times. Blind rage cannot understand anything as complex or beautiful as Rome, or a library, or even a person, an animal, a book, a tree, a work of art—but blind rage can make these intricate systems stop, and the ability to make things stop has served many of our kind since time immemorial as a fine substitute for learning, experience, scientific method, artistic creation, philosophy. Destruction, too, can count as hard work.

The new Bibliotheca Alexandrina was erected to reverse that dark history, to reject destruction—even the destruction of millennia past—as final. The building, with its circular face, emerges from the earth like a rising sun (the design is by a Norwegian firm, Snøhetta, people who understand the sun); it faces a glorious bay that laps the ruins of the Ptolemies’ palace. The complex hosts scientific conferences, conferences on women, a massive collection of manuscripts, digital equipment, museums, collections of contemporary art, and a host of other activities; it means to recreate the spirit of ancient Alexandria, for many centuries perhaps the most cosmopolitan place on earth.

In a similar challenge to destruction and chaos, the nineteenth- and early twentieth-century residents of Athens resolved to reassemble the scattered pieces of their Acropolis from a confusion of later, jerry-built fortification walls, reconstructing the little temple of Athena Nike from scattered scraps, bringing forth for display the statues that were ruined in the Persian invasions of 480 BCE, a foray that left the original temples of Athens in smoking ruins. The statues had been solemnly buried the year afterwards, hidden away in consecrated ditches because the gods would disdain imperfection. The ruined temples were replaced by the buildings we know so well, the Parthenon, Propylaea, and Erechtheion. As for those battered, buried statues, brought out from hiding, perfect enough for our human eyes, they are now the pride of the new Acropolis Museum, which sets the archaic lions and monsters of the old temple pediments at eye level and lets us wander among a forest of beautiful marble maidens—the famous Korai, with their secret smiles and carefully plaited hair.

Whatever Egypt is to become now, the Library of Alexandria is surely an essential beacon by which to guide it—in this city where the ancient world’s most powerful lighthouse, the Pharos, once blazed forth (its pink granite pieces are still immured in the scenic Qaitbey Fortress). The Library is not only a national—and international—symbol of civility, but also a safe refuge for private thoughts. From the moment it opened eight years ago, young Egyptians have crowded into its eight levels, all eight sharing a single roof—a place where solitary contemplation lives in evident harmony with collective will. As these same young people now stand guard over their library in these difficult but hopeful days (along with Dr. Serageldin, who remains at his post), they are in fact standing guard for all of us.

February 1, 2011 10:45 a.m.

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by Motorway to Roswell » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:56 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... good-egypt
Tony Blair has described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as "immensely courageous and a force for good" and warned against a rush to elections that could bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power.
"...we now pause to test the soul of the Steppenwolf"

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by phrex » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:17 pm

Motorway to Roswell wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... good-egypt
Tony Blair has described Hosni Mubarak, the beleaguered Egyptian leader, as "immensely courageous and a force for good" and warned against a rush to elections that could bring the Muslim Brotherhood to power.
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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by 64hz » Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:58 pm

well to be honest they have taken that quote out of context:
I've worked with him on the Middle East peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians so this is somebody I'm constantly in contact with and working with and on that issue, I have to say, he's been immensely courageous and a force for good," he said.
and left out a crucial:
"I don't think there's a majority for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt"

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by pkay » Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:36 pm

64hz wrote: and left out a crucial:
"I don't think there's a majority for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt"
majorities are not required in middle eastern politics to obtain power.... only backing from powerful allies (ie Lebanon currently being taken over by a minority with Iranian backing, Iraq with the US, etc).

A marginal gain in power for the Muslim Brotherhood would be enough to disrupt the political process in Egypt. They might not have the power to rule but they would have the power to harm the ruling powers and set themselves up as a solution to Egypts problems down the line. This goes on in politics all over the world. The left is the problem, the right is the solution. Now the right is the problem and the left is the solution. At no point do the left and the right help each other... they aid in pushing the other one out so they can take over.

Egypt is rather progressive now but it's a pretty basic idea in politics to say "we're having problems and our liberal living is the problem. the solution is to return to conservative values." This is the admitted goal of the Muslim Brotherhood. This happens in politics all the time and is not some far fetched hair brained scheme.

I think the world at large is generally unfamiliar with the Muslim Brotherhood so when the ticker across the screen says they Muslim Brotherhood denies any aid in the unrest they take it at face value. I think they're playing nice for the cameras so when the inevitable outside mediation occurs they're asked to come to the table.

Even if you don't believe any bit of that at the very least you should be suspect of every politician and their motives. The first question you should ask yourself is 'what do they have to gain'. Ask yourself about that in regards to this situation and press on.

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Re: the situation in egypt

Post by noam » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:50 am

^^^^

but the protests in Egypt seem clearly in aid of more progression, not regression

there's been no rhetorical spiel about western influence AT ALL. as a country a large part of their economy is tourist based. it is just speculation on my behalf but i'd guess they (as a whole) would want an increase in liberal, western influence. not the other way around.

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