DSF Q&A Sessions Vol. 18 - Threnody

[threnody]

What is your opinion on the DAWs that arent as frequently used by big producers, such as FL studio which is what i use. Would you recommend to use what your confortable with, or suggest a more (professional?) DAW such as what you use, cubase, or something like pro tools.
In short, your opinion on FL.

Well i used a little known sequencer called Making Waves for all my music pre 2009... ultimately tho Cubase gave far more functionality so I made the switch - i do miss some of the quirks of that software tho.

So as for lesser used software i think that there is no problems with using it - Skream after all used to use FL, some of the early grime was done on music 2000 etc.... To look at FL Specifically i think that it is perfectly useable...the fact it has 3rd party plugin support puts it WELL above Reason in my opinion. Although again i think that most people who cut their production teeth with FL will eventually migrate onto Logic, Cubase or (maybe) Pro Tools just because FL is a bit more limited in what you can do.

So use FL....push the limits with it - get to know it really well and probably eventually you will move onto other software but it will happen naturally. I have never really used FL at all personally but I think it is a far better introductory piece of software than Reason due to the 3rd party support.

[misk]

nice to see you doing this, thren i really should send you some tunes.. come a long way since pocket funk! So - my question.. at what point did it seem prudent for you to take the leap to start a label? was it only to release your own tunes, or did you have a plan to release other people's tracks from the beginning?

hope all's well, and big up legendary for getting this going

[threnody]

Ah big up Misk - send me new bits for sure!!! I would love tyo hear where you're at + i have some big mixes and gigs coming up (as well as the Sub FM show) so would love to drop some fresh bit by you...

As for the UK TRENDS label - it has always been an ambition of mine to have a label....really since i was 12... infact i started my own netlabel back in 1996 although it was under a different name and was used for experimental/ambient/noise artists. So when I had a few proper releases under my belt i thought it was time to start a proper label.

Me, Succulent-C had been using the UK Trends name since we were at uni together (since around 2002) so the label was an extension of what we had been doing.... i guess the main reason for starting it was curiosity... i wanted to see how the process of reasing music worked...i had signed tracks to labels in 2006 and it took up to 2 yearsvfor some of them to come out...a label gave me maximum contol!

Initially it was a platformto release my music under various different aliases and Succulent-C's music as he was too lazy to ever send it to any labels! The label got underway in 2009 and by the end of the year i was releasing other artists....through doing my Sub FM show i was getting loads of music that needed releasing but wasn't coming out...stuff by Full Spektrum, Paradigm X & Hellfire Machina (Tom from hellfire was at uni with me and succulent). So other artists happened naturally.....

I didn't sign distro at first as i wanted to see how digital shops etc all worked however last June my baby was born and time became a bit harder to find so at the start of this year we signed a major distro deal with Cargo.... tere has been a bit of crossover time whilst they get up the back catalogue, the new website is built and people finish off EPs but we are back in April with literally EVERYWHERE stocking the releases and it will be a MASSIVE relaunch..

I can't wait to get it back up and running bt obviously after my daughter was born i had to put things on hold for a few months and now things are shaping up to be huge in the second half of 2011!

[Fbac]

thanks again for doing this!
On the topic of sending music to people how finished do you think it should be?
A fully finished and masterd track, a mixdown thats roughly all right, or a work in production which has all the creative elements done just needs mixing down in a freq-flat-response studio.

Im thinking it should be a fully finished song as then the label your sending it to can do something with it and dont have to spend any time on the artist but im sure lots of people dont have access to studios, and i myself have tracks that im happy with but could do with another producer just polising it off (maybe im lazy)

Thanks again for doing this! its been a great read. Good luck on the re-launch il be looking out for any of your releases and shall be locking into sub Fm .. and all the best to your family and young one! A more epic challenge then starting a label im sure!

[threnody]

thanks again for doing this!
On the topic of sending music to people how finished do you think it should be?
A fully finished and masterd track, a mixdown thats roughly all right, or a work in production which has all the creative elements done just needs mixing down in a freq-flat-response studio.

Im thinking it should be a fully finished song as then the label your sending it to can do something with it and dont have to spend any time on the artist but im sure lots of people dont have access to studios, and i myself have tracks that im happy with but could do with another producer just polising it off (maybe im lazy)
!

I would always wait until the track is as good as you can make it at that moment in time... If you need to improve the mixdown then work hard at mixdowns, research, try out different things, listen to music on as many speakers/environments as possible... You don't neccessarily need a specialist studio to mixdown, you just need a basic pair of monitors and then train your ears to get used to the idiosyncrasies of the speakers... to do this mixdown a track and then listen to it on some really good speakers, in your car, on some laptop speakers...if it sounds passable in all environments then the mixdown is good. Also it is always worth putting a gentle limiter on the exported track just so it doesn't sound quiet in the mix - careful to not mash the dynamics or clip certain frequencies tho!!..The Reason m-class limiter is horrible!

Of course a track can be worked on (especially the mixdown) when you send tracks to labels you are sending 320s anyway so you will always export it again to provide an unmastered WAV....Also it depends on the label... I have signed a couple of tracks that are not completely finished to my ears....I can tell the producer what to do and then maybe tart it up myself as well...a little bit of additional engineering - i did this with Succulent-C's EP...the tracks were 90% there but needed some additional EQing/Mixing....Obviously i know Succulent really well (he was the best man at my wedding!) but i would be less likely to do this for someone i didn't know....unless the track was genius on the scale of Boxcutter's Brood or some Toasty etc.........

So always finish the track as much as possible - the last thing you want to do is a big send out and then a week later get a new idea or a new mixdown of the track and then kick yourself that you sent out a worse version....... When it comes to music production.....make haste.....SLOWLY!

[Filthzilla]

Where do you see Dubstep going in the future?
Can we keep it out of the hands of pop stars?
What new genre hybrids can you fore see?

[hakka]

Hey, great read and some very useful information. Just a quick one from me, i seen you mentioned a few posts back about the old days when a studio was full of people with diffrent skills etc. I have trouble writing melodys, even very basic ones. Any tips on how to overcome this and start making consistant melodys?

[-dubson-]

Great thread. Huge respect to you. I wish you were my teacher at college.

- Whats your process for mixing down tracks? Are there anythings you always do to certain parts/sounds?

- Is there any little things you learnt which got your stuff sounding that extra 10% more professional?

- Has having your tracks mastered taught you much?

- Do you have any real ambitions for the future in regards to your music or projects or do you want to go with the flow?

[threnody]

Where do you see Dubstep going in the future?
Can we keep it out of the hands of pop stars?
What new genre hybrids can you fore see?

Well having seen dubstep be born (more or less - I started DJing with dubstep in 2003).... i think we are at a point again like we were 10 years ago as garage began to fragment.... As a reaction to every 15 yr old with a copy of reason being a dubstep 'producer'....plus pop stars getting on the dubstep train.... i think that lots of people have already moved back into the underground and are quietly making music that really it is up to journalists and record shops to classify.....

Back in 2003 you had garage music which was going off in tangents...8bar, sublow, grime, dubstep, breakstep.... In 2011 you have the same thing....
- Bok Bok + L-Vis 1990 with the Night Slugs sound,
- Hyperdub doing their thing,
- Myself, Noiz, Full Spektrum, ScanOne (and labels like Combat, Yellow Machines, UK Trends & Syndetic) going into a hybrid breakstep sound (more influenced from good dnb, dubstep & proper breakbeat music)
- Whistla, KingThing, Submerse, M2J, ReSketch & the L2S garage influenced scene....
- The filthy distorted bass crew (like Rottun, Circle etc...)
- The Berlin inspired dubtech type sound (Hotflush, Joy Orbison etc...)
- The deep, dubby, minimal dubstep sound...
- The FlyLo/Lone glitch hop/wonky sound
- The Swamp81 juke inspired beats...

These to me seem to be the main directions that the dubstep is splitting into...some sounds are more established than others but i think that all the scenes have their own merits and you cn imagine how each will develop.... Remember out of the big garage split in 2003 really dubstep has been the biggest winner, sublow (sadly) died, 8bar just merged with grime, breakstep became unfashionable when halfstep took over in 2006 (and J Da Flex stopped his 1xtra show).

Of course out of the new trends some will flourish (i think the Night Slugs sound will be the next dubstep in terms of popularity - I also think the Future Garage sound will have some crossover success)... I think the deep, dubby dubstep will evolve out of all recognition...the FlyLo sound is already big and will get bigger, the breaksteppy sounds will be in the underground but could potentially diversify in the same way dnb has and may even yield some big success and just become ingrained in music culture like dnb has....

Interesting and exciting times for all types of post-dubstep. the important thing now is to make the music you are truly feeling and send it out to the DJs you are really into. Never imitate always develop your own sound.

Dubstep is only a name & it is so different now to how it was in 2003 i don't understand how people get so precious about it. It is a loose description to help identify a sound but now the only people saying they write dubstep are kids with Reason and a wobble bass trying to be the next big thing and use the established name to promote themselves OR pop moguls/emo + metal bands/past it dance acts who think that using the word dubstep & nicking some cliches of the genre will make them cool and relevant. Leave them to it and look to the next thing...be the future trend.

[Fiendish338]

Hi Threnody

I like what you've done(doing) and think that it is great you are teaching music tech as well. Do you ever feel that your style is to dark and heavy for the classroom/mainstream and would you consider crossing over and doing a bit of chart friendly dubstep?

&

What is the best gig you've done?

Peace!

[threnody]

Hey, great read and some very useful information. Just a quick one from me, i seen you mentioned a few posts back about the old days when a studio was full of people with diffrent skills etc. I have trouble writing melodys, even very basic ones. Any tips on how to overcome this and start making consistant melodys?

Hakka my answer here depends on how much musical training you have.....

I think it is really strange with music how everyone thinks they can instantly do it.... i mean if you had never really studied english at uni level you wouldn't write a novel, if you haven't been to art college you wouldn't really be a serious artist, actors go to stage school, scientists study science, doctors study for 6 years etc.... To understand music you need to study it... you need to understand how music work - different scales, modes, structures, forms - without this knowledge people will always struggle at some aspect.

Obviously technical stuff can be learnt by doing it (using software/EQing etc) bur actually COMPOSITION is something which demands time, dedication & creativity. I would suggest that the absolute minimum that ANYONE who writes music should do is study music theory up to grade 5...in addition being able to read music is invaluable to the understanding of how melodies and harmonies work. If you study theory you will know when to put in a key change, what notes will work with other notes, how to make a song happy or sad.

TBH i think the whole reason for the decline in standards is down to the 'anyone can do it' DIY attitude that punk brought. The sound was angry and raw but also ran out of ideas in about 2 years...people writing punk didn't have the knowledge or education to know how to develop the sounds so it stagnated and died very quickly..... the same could also be said for Oasis....

So if you want to write CONSISTENT melodies my only tip is buy the 'AB guide to music theory' (it's a pink book) and work through it - get an understanding of different scales and then writing melodies & harmonies & music generally will be a lot easier. There is (rightly) no quick fix or basic formula...sometimes people will fluke across a good melody or 2 but will always fall short eventually if they haven't got a background knowledge.

[threnody]

Great thread. Huge respect to you. I wish you were my teacher at college.

- Whats your process for mixing down tracks? Are there anythings you always do to certain parts/sounds?

Mixing is an art which i put a LOT of time into a few years back (as i was working on my first release for Rottun). Generally i always mixdown & EQ as i go along, getting a basic level. I then listen to the tracks a lot on different speakers, headphones & different environments to get an ideaof how things sound on different systems.... i got obsessive about mixdowns in 2006!! You have to know your speakers inside out to get a good mixdown too...

My tracks are usually quite complex so there is a lot to mixdown (i use a lot of group channels!!) Generally tho i would say make sure your drums & bass are the 2 most prominent elements, then sit the melody just under that and then vocal samples then pads/harmonies/countermelodies and then incidental sounds (bleeps, sweeps etc) and finally any atmospheric sounds.. Also make sure you pan your instruments (but always keep the bass & main drums dead central!).....

When it comes to mixing down i always think 3 dimensionally.... imagine a rectangular room and think what you want at the centre-front (drums & bass) and then just position the other elements behind and to the left, centre or right. This will give good space and width to a mix

- Is there any little things you learnt which got your stuff sounding that extra 10% more professional?

EQing....also i think using chains of FX and FX channels really helps.... Also using either Logic, Cubase or Pro-Tools (even if you rewire fruity/reason and only use cubase et al for mixing, EQing & FX)

- Has having your tracks mastered taught you much?

When my first vinyl came out i listened to the record a lot to hear the difference from my studio version and the mastered version. Since then i have really got into mastering to the point where I am pretty good at it (and can do a decent job for any 320s I send out).... Really i did compare waveforms and frequency spectrums to see the difference and this helped... a lot of the learning process was trial and error (and reading the excellent book on mastering by Bob Katz).

[threnody]

- Do you have any real ambitions for the future in regards to your music or projects or do you want to go with the flow?

There has always got to be an element of going with the flow (as often opportunities come by surprise) but if you don't have ambitions then you will lack direction.

Ultimately i would love to sign a deal with someone like Planet Mu/Warp and be able to put out albums and EPs with that level of backing.... My former colleague was Bibio who signed to Warp whilst he was still working with me.... his second album is coming out with them & his music was used in the latest Kindle advert.... He has made enough for it to be his full time career.... I would love to do this but i think it is a good 4-5 years down the line for me.... I have to get my album out and work on the next one and really all the time you have to build relationships, supporters, fans and hype..... Of course i would love to write an album like darkside of the moon which doesn't compromise my sound but is also in 90% of people's record collections!...As with most artists I want music to be heard by and touch as many people as possible.

Longer term i would love to do soundtracks for films and produce albums for other people (i'm talking about 15 years down the line).....

I will always write music, i started when I was 10 years old and it really has been a daily thing for me since then so i can never imagine not making music...obviously being a grandad behind the decks is not a great look so you have to look at ways in which you can write music - doing soundtracks would be amazing.

I think that as an artist you have to make sure your stock is always rising...make sure you spend enough time developing quality tracks, networking & building relationships and also marketing yourself (you could have a hardrive full of the greatest ever music but without getting it out there it is nothing).....

Short term plans are to do Glade festival this year, do my mix for Rob Booth's show, do a couple more mixes to help spread the sound & get my album & EPs out.....Plus develop my UK Trends label.

[threnody]

I like what you've done(doing) and think that it is great you are teaching music tech as well. Do you ever feel that your style is to dark and heavy for the classroom/mainstream and would you consider crossing over and doing a bit of chart friendly dubstep?

I don't know about my style being that heavy...my early records (the Rottun releases, the Scorn remix) were heavy but also quite deep and melodic...my sound is always dark tho...not in the heavy metal/pseudo spooky way but more in a minor key way.... this is just what i like...

My album will be quite a surprise to some people who only know me for my Rottun material...it is very orchestral, glitchy & dark but with shards of light and a complexity you can only really explore with an album.... However i wouldn't just do chart friendly dubstep.... I have written some dark garage tracks in the past (Quiet The Night is out on L2S for example) and i have done some housier bits under the name Koncode.... I also have my band stuff under the name Disrepute At The Hands of My Idol...... none of it is exactly pop music tho!!! But if you look at people like Portishead, Radiohead, Roni Size, Goldie etc... they prove you don't need to be making 'chart-friendly' music in order to have mainstream success.

Of course if I was asked to produce the next Britney album (or whatever) then I would look at putting a twist on my sound...there is some great pop music (like Britney's Toxic, Girls Aloud, Some Black Eyed Peas, Vengaboyz etc....) so i would look at integrating my sound with this....not just putting a wobble underneath a pop song as so often happens.... but realistically this isn't going to happen....and i wouldn't just write a sell out dubstep song.... Although i would hope that my sound becomes really popular and i win a mercury prize/grammy and gain mainstream recognition (hahahahaha!!!)....

What is the best gig you've done?

Difficult to narrow it down to 1..... the top 3 are

1. Vendetta @ Club Fleda in the Czech Republic.... An amazing club with full visuals, a massive, lively crowd, top quality backstage area and a proper soundsystem.... check out some videos from this on my website @ http://www.threnody.co.uk

2. Rephlex v Dissident @ Motion in Bristol...... An outstanding club and great, receptive crowd. This wasn't a dubstep night and i was the only dubsteppy act so great to rep the sound to a new audience. Really professionally run night and some great music (Scotch Egg & Chris Clark were on after me!)

3. Dogzstar @ Istanbul.....A fantastic night in easily the best city in the world. A real hardcore crowd and absolutely full of vibes, cheers in every pause and mad dancing at every drop....

There have been other notable gigs... i was resident at Back To Bassics in Bristol for 2 years and there were some excellent nights there, also I played Dubraizer at Corsica in 2007.... Ikonika & Boomnoise were on before me (before Ikonika got huge)... it was my London debut and Corsica is such a great venue.

[Dystinkt]

Great Q&A man, really interesting posts on here. Ima be honest, I hadn't really heard of you before I read this Q&A but I listened to your stuff on here, youtube etc and I have to say i like it a lot, you've definitely got a new fan here haha. Also I've a lot of respect for your knowledge and opinions as well, it's nice to read stuff from somebody really clued up about music in general. Anyways my question is how easy is it to get a gig when your just starting out, and would you say its easier to establish yourself as a producer first and then get bookings or as a DJ?

[threnody]

Great Q&A man, really interesting posts on here. Ima be honest, I hadn't really heard of you before I read this Q&A but I listened to your stuff on here, youtube etc and I have to say i like it a lot, you've definitely got a new fan here haha. Also I've a lot of respect for your knowledge and opinions as well, it's nice to read stuff from somebody really clued up about music in general. Anyways my question is how easy is it to get a gig when your just starting out, and would you say its easier to establish yourself as a producer first and then get bookings or as a DJ?

Big up mate - cheers for checking my stuff and glad you like!

As for your question.....I was lucky when I was starting out as I was at uni so I just befriended the DJs at our local student bar (one of whom happened to be Tom who is now in Hellfire Machina) and they let me on the decks for half an hour every friday... The next year me and Succulent-C got the residency at that bar and also residencies in a few other local clubs. I also had a residency playing commercial hip-hop and UK garage at a strip bar...but i got fired as I always got a big dancefloor going and the management got pissed off as no-one was paying for private dances!!!

So I honed my DJing skills on the local arena and I would suggest anyone else to do the same.... Look at what is going in your local area and try to get involved...Turn up to all the events and get to know the promotor and after a few months give him a mix and ask for a slot.... Really my bookings didn't start coming on an international scale until i had a few releases. My first london gig was at Corsica and that was about 6 months before my first release however by then I had tracks already signed just not out yet....

I think that DJing and being a producer go hand in hand as you really get an understanding of how music works in a club environment which is essential...that is why it is important to DJ out wherever you can to begin with... You also have to be a bit lucky about meeting the right people as you go along and also really build relationships with people... I got a 2 year residency in Bristol as I happened to have taught the promoter's friend's brother....he knew my music as well and got me down for the launch night and then this developed into a residency which led to meeting another promoter which led to more gigs and the Glade festival.... Always build relationships with people, be genuine etc....

After you have a few releases out you can approach people about DJing at events but really you need to have a good website to show off you as an artist/DJ....having a radio show also helps....

So to directly answer your question....DJ where you can for the experience and enjoyment...definitely produce and develop your sound alongside the DJing....Get dubs off your mates and anyone who will give you them and deveop a unique DJ selection....do a lot of mixes and post them on soundcloud/mixcloud/facebook.....try to get a radio show and releases.....go in search of gigs......

As a final stage i would probably say get an agent... It saves a lot of hassle and will help you get more gigs.... I have always resisted getting one but now i just don't have the time to chase gigs constantly... so if any agents are reading then get in touch!

[Dystinkt]

Thanks man top notch answer, already got a radio show and i put mixes out to anyone and everyone on facebook and soundcloud haha hopefully i'll get lucky soon, thanks again and keep it up with the big tunes mate!

[vertx]

How to you approach reverbs when creating an atmospheric, spacious track? do you use sends or inserts? multiple verbs or only one verb for the whole tune?

What are your thoughts on panning reverb in the mix or sidechaining reverbs to kicks/snares?

Do you ever compress after reverb for effect?

And lastly do you find you highpass your reverbs?

[threnody]

How to you approach reverbs when creating an atmospheric, spacious track? do you use sends or inserts? multiple verbs or only one verb for the whole tune?

What are your thoughts on panning reverb in the mix or sidechaining reverbs to kicks/snares?

Do you ever compress after reverb for effect?

And lastly do you find you highpass your reverbs?

Great question - reverbs are such an important part of dubstep so need to be treated properly!

As a general rule I always use sends for my reverbs, that way I can EQ each reverb and also adjust it's volume easily. Obviously having 1 reverb gives a more natural feel to the track (like the whole track has been recorded in a certain space) whereas you won't get this with multiple reverbs....however does this matter?? Quite possibly you may want a big reverb on your snare but something much subtler on your melody. One of the benefits (and joys) of computer music is we don't have to have the sonic limitations that always used to come with rock music. We can twist buffers, wreck sounds, create unreal textures, make sound which is completely not of this earth etc... so i don't see any reason to try and imitate the natural world.

You highlight one of the techniques that can be used to make a reverb completely unnatural - compressing it! A great effect in my opinion, squashing and wrecking the natural tail of a reverb to create a sound which could never be captured by recording it naturally. Also try buffer freezing a reverb... or putting a reverse delay on a reverb.... or a distortion on a reverb.... Use reverb creatively!

As for sidechaining kicks and snares to a reverb it is a good idea, not something i have done personally, but if it gets the desired sonic effect then it is the right thing to do. Once you know how to use reverbs you can look at ways to manipulate them and twist them and use them as a creative element in your track. Similarly with panning, why not.... an interesting idea - i may give it a go and see how it sounds!

One thing I would always suggest is EQing your reverbs tho. Not necessarily just highpassing (you may want to bandpass to accentuate the mids etc...). EQing is so important in producing a loud, clear mixdown and spill from a reverb can make your mix muddy and take away any space you have created.

So a practical example of how i would use reverbs.... I would have 1 reverb that the drums all went through (these days I usually just use the reverb built into battery), a few other reverbs on sounds which needed them - usually vocal, melody, harmony would go through 1 reverb; atmosphere and incidental sounds through another.... They would all be on sends so i could adjust the wet/dry mix for each sound.....

[threnody]

if you could collab with any artist (alive or dead & any genre), who would it be & why?

Great read so far

Collaboration would be Avro Part. My favourite composer and someone who creates truly astounding music - i would live to study composition with him and see how he forms music.... I would be happy for the collaboration to take a few years to complete - maybe if we did an opera or a mass or something big. I would also loved to have worked with Stockhausen (RIP).

In addition there are a few people who i would like to collaborate with by producing an album for them.... Radiohead, Mogwai and Godspeed You Black Emperor immediately spring to mind... I would be quite dictatorial as a producer tho - i would take what they did and mess it around into my style... i think it would be a really interesting process to work with a band like this tho.