WTF America... wtf...

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pkay
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by pkay » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:19 pm

pompende wrote:actually having reread this thread you don't make that clear in the slightest. you say "anything to protect yourself" in a thread about gun law. surrounded by people talking about using guns in a break in. How could i assume you meant anything else?

also, you live in austin. i live in fucking memphis so please don't say anything about me trying to look cool. this is an actual consideration for me.
right but you quoted a conversation (a few pages deep) where it has been determined none of us own guns and none of us use guns or plan to use guns and for literally pages have been talking about something entirely different involving americans valuing their fellow mans life and whether that applies when you feel your family is in danger.

You've already made it clear you're just trying to get a rise out of talking shit while noam, myself, and a few others have been talking about something completely separate from just guns.

It will probably help if you put nowaysj on ignore as he's been maintaining the gun convo when quite a few of us moved off of that a few pages back.

I cant catch you up thats on you. I'm generally going to assume you're just looking for an excuse to chat shit as you rarely qualify any of your opinions in any of these debate threads.

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by pompende » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:24 pm

alright. i'll fix my post.

and i'm not really sure what you're arguing either? you point out that most B&Es are committed by people who have seriously fucked up lives. somehow you have also determined that these people are always going to try to hurt you in the robbery process. therefore, you assert, it is reasonable to physically harm these people with horribly fucked lives.

and, im sorry, but i'm not going to read through three or four pages of people trying to talk sense into you.

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by pkay » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:39 pm

pompende wrote:alright. i'll fix my post.

and i'm not really sure what you're arguing either? you point out that most B&Es are committed by people who have seriously fucked up lives. somehow you have also determined that these people are always going to try to hurt you in the robbery process. therefore, you assert, it is reasonable to physically harm these people with horribly fucked lives.

and, im sorry, but i'm not going to read through three or four pages of people trying to talk sense into you.
The others managed to understand for the purpose of debate. Given your history on this forum I don't think anyone really cares to devote much effort to catching you up for the purpose of including you in the conversation.

Sorry bro

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by nowaysj » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:22 am

pompende wrote:i'm not going to read through three or four pages of people trying to talk sense into you.
I'll summarize it for you, then :lol:

Better to let your house be broken into and hope that you and your loved ones are not killed, beaten, abducted or sexually violated rather than take steps that would either deter or stop the criminal, because the criminal has had a hard life and it would be morally wrong to violate their rights.
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by noam » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:03 am

dobly
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by noam » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:04 am

nowaysj wrote:
pompende wrote:i'm not going to read through three or four pages of people trying to talk sense into you.
I'll summarize it for you, then :lol:

Better to let your house be broken into and hope that you and your loved ones are not killed, beaten, abducted or sexually violated rather than take steps that would either deter or stop the criminal, because the criminal has had a hard life and it would be morally wrong to violate their rights.
yuppo :h:

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by Badman Juice » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:35 am

seckle wrote:
Badman Juice wrote:
pkay wrote:
Badman Juice wrote:you think you can divorce yourself from your country's crimes
Despite our countries 'crimes' we don't hold a candle to most every European countries 'crimes' if we're gonna get real.
at least their countries didn't proclaim themselves as ultra moral beacons of freedom and democracy.

american arrogance across the political spectrum is sickening.
just stop, because you don't want to go century by century in a "moral beacons of freedom and democracy" sort of vein regarding the British Empire. your country's modern and ancient history is no fucking example of anything moral or just...whatsoever. where do you want to start? the crusades? scotland? egypt? palestine? india? ireland? jamaica? barbados? let me know.
yh and if you said you wanted to watch britain burn I wouldn't give a shit.
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by pompende » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:48 am

well i read back through the entire thread and it seems like i did summarize it correctly above...exactly what nowaysjay says. yall think anyone desperate enough to commit a robbery is also desperate to enough to commit murder. that just doesn't add up in my head. and i don't think going through crack, meth, or heroin withdrawal makes every person into a murderous psychopath either. there is enough doubt/variability there that violence isn't the best first response. and that is definitely an observation related the debate you and noam are having right now.

originally all i wanted to do was log the fact that I am an american and ideally i would let someone kill me rather than kill them. getting a rise out of you pkay was a bonus.
i can't say whether i would "fight" or "flight" (and personal experience sadly indicates that it would be the former) but i think flight is the morally superior choice. that is all.


pkay wrote:well let's be real... i dont have a gun, i have a bat. and if someone broke in my house and i caught them I'm taking it to the dome with as much force as I can muster and I'm not stopping till said individual is ceasing to move.

I'm just as likely to maim, mutilate, or kill under that scenario as I am with a gun.

you're either the type thats gonna defend yours or go for safety. That's not gonna change

don't need a gun to justifiably kill a burglar....
pkay wrote:not about killing to protect my shit... got insurance for that... and getting robbed you can generally make money off insurance so really could give a fuck about posessions..... about not getting killed myself or having my girlfriend get raped/murdered/etc.

Maybe in the UK you can't understand the plight of american poverty and drug culture.... folks breaking into houses in the US aren't just rascals from the east end looking to make a dime and cause a little trouble. You're talking about people who are stealing to feed insane drug habits and are just as likely to take your life.
...
I also come back to if you have kids in the house? What the fuck kind of man are you if you aren't going to protect your fucking family? You gonna wait till he makes a pass at your 2 year old daughter before you intervene with more than a harsh scolding and traumatizes your kid for life? Get the fuck out of here with that bitch ass shit.
yes there are really desperate people in america with severe drug addictions.
i think the ones committing B&Es are just as likely to run as soon as you turn on a light as they are to immediately attempt to murder you and rape your wife. i dunno maybe you've worked in a methadone clinic or something and you have much more info on this than me.

also, it seems like the subject of home invaders trying to rape your girlfriend was something you introduced to rationalize your desire to represent yourself as a badass who is capable of bashing another man's head in.

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by cyberneticghost » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:52 am

pompende wrote:ideally i would let someone kill me rather than kill them.
Why? Serious question. I'm genuinely curious.

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by pompende » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:13 am

because i think murder is wrong. ideally i would rather die than commit it.
also, im not under the illusion that i'm some great person that the world needs.
ultimately even my most altruistic actions are driven by self interest. and with the lifestyle i have (which is actually quite humble and unobtrusive in some frames of reference... ie i run air conditioning, have a car, buy name brand shoes) i doubt i will ever net out as a boon to society. even if i were to dedicate my life to serving only medicare patients.

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by ruckus49 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:03 am

bill hicks wrote:No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money, a choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your door, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one.
makes more sense to me every time i come back to it

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by pkay » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:14 am

pompende wrote: also, it seems like the subject of home invaders trying to rape your girlfriend was something you introduced to rationalize your desire to represent yourself as a badass who is capable of bashing another man's head in.
lol making me out to be some sort of alpha male plays into your little meme about how you'd rather die than harm another human. Problem is you go on to display contradicting tendencies when you say you enjoy getting a rise out of poking other persons. This happens because you are a stereotypical unhealthy introvert and believe you are smarter than everyone around you, yet admittedly, can do nothing with your wealth of intellect. Laymens terms, you're full of shit.

It's kind of sad because you show signs of being able to contribute to conversations but you get so hell bent on making the topic all about you that you shit all over any valid points you have by making contrarian statements like you'd rather be murdered than harm another human.

If you have children or a significant other or a family that relies on you or looks at you as the protector of your household it is one of the most important roles a person can have. It is a primal instinct ingrained in us over the ages. At no point did I say or imply that if i flipped on the lights and the burglar ran out that I'd chase him down the street and murder him for the sake of murdering. I said if any type of altercation broke out I'm rendering him incapable of harming my family.

We have alot of young males on here who do not have wives/fiances/children/etc. Having these things changes your outlook on life completely. When you have these things your life ceases to be simply about you... and your decisions, reactions, etc cease to be just about you.

I've had the unfortunate opportunity to serve in afghanistan and Iraq. Because of that I personally do not own a gun and will never own a gun barring zombies or a post-apocalyptic scenario. However, serving in those hostile areas and seeing scenarios play out as such I've learned that your family is the most valuable thing you have in this life as it is the only thing that cannot be bought, traded for, stolen, etc and the love of your family members is one of the only things worth fighting for in this world.

This point is in no way related to the argument on gun legalization nor does it imply that I support private ownership... it does however, say I understand the motivation by a lot of americans to arm themselves. I don't condone, but I do understand.

I don't condone driving gas guzzling SUV's but I understand.
I don't condone abusing drugs but I understand.
I don't condone a lot of things but I understand.

Our european counterparts do not understand, my comments were trying to aide them in understanding

I'm going to get back on track and either let this thread die or get back to healthy discussion about the topic at hand. If you wish to make this about you again I'll have to politely not play along.

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by nowaysj » Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:35 am

pkay wrote:It's kind of sad because you show signs of being able to contribute to conversations but you get so hell bent on making the topic all about you that you shit all over any valid points you have
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by flyingointment » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:21 am

The paranoia is definitely a problem, but it's also practically justified. I didn't even know about that shit in Connecticut that PK posted that video about...when you live in a country where shit like that and the BTK killer's spree goes down, you need to be able to defend yourself. : |

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by flyingointment » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:33 am

This is also something to consider.

Not trying to say that this kind of shit is extremely common, but why take a chance?

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by capo ultra » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:02 am

good luck being morally superior and dead nowayshd
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by noam » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:44 am

pkay wrote:
This point is in no way related to the argument on gun legalization nor does it imply that I support private ownership... it does however, say I understand the motivation by a lot of americans to arm themselves. I don't condone, but I do understand.

I don't condone driving gas guzzling SUV's but I understand.
I don't condone abusing drugs but I understand.
I don't condone a lot of things but I understand.

Our european counterparts do not understand, my comments were trying to aide them in understanding

I'm going to get back on track and either let this thread die or get back to healthy discussion about the topic at hand. If you wish to make this about you again I'll have to politely not play along.
i kinda resent that man, i've obviously shown that i understand what you're talking about but i just dont agree

what i didn't 'understand' or 'get' was some of the ridiculous over-reactions and denials of some people

seeing that Svpreme has just come through and admitted that US paranoia is actually a problem is kind of good to hear though, least there has been SOME concession to the problem

things like when you make a point about a) the size and b) the population of America, but then Svpreme comes on and you yourself have referenced some serial killers it only serves to validate the idea that paranoia is like a disease to some Americans.

But in the same way i think yeh, you DO have a reason to be paranoid, your society is inherently violent, your films are for the most part based on violence which is symptomiatic as opposed to a direct cause, your history (which is probably the main reason) too, your politics and your news

but thats not to say you have no choice

i understand your desire to protect your family, that is completely justifiable, i'd be severely worried if you were another way, i think a part of this could be down to the level of patriotism/hegemony in your country - but i've gota go out so i'll make the rest of that point when i get back!

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by badger » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:49 am

svpreme wrote:This is also something to consider.

Not trying to say that this kind of shit is extremely common, but why take a chance?
you already said that it's rare...

there's a chance that whenever you get on a plane it might get hijacked and you'd all die - does that mean everyone should be allowed to carry a gun on a plane? of course not

it all comes back to fear again. if you plan for the worst possibile eventuality then things have a tendency to be self-fulfilling. person a is afraid of getting shot dead so carries a gun, so when person b tries to mug them, person a pulls out a gun and ends up losing their life when they could just have lost their wallet. or a student carries a gun out of fear and then one day that previously impeccable student has a mental breakdown and goes on a killing spree

as noam's said, noone is denying that america is violent but violence begets violence. the causes of the excessive violence in america - from both criminals and ordinary members of the public who believe that violence is the only defence - are what needs adressing; not guns or other weapons

it's the collective psychology of america that needs sorting out more than anything else

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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by the wiggle baron » Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:58 am

Oh, this whole conversation has taken a total nose dive :o

Pkay you just got very personal with pompende for little reason from what I can see. Unless that shits happened before...but dont do that, it really detracted from your argument. I actually agree to an extent with what you quoted from pompende. But for me, its more this (so rare its almost fictional...) idea of home invaders out to fuck up your life that is used to base gun ownership and a general feeling of fear.

As far as I am aware, the issue of gun ownership has not been addressed. The argument on the supporting side appear to be "I want to be able to defend my self/others". Whereas the other side appears to be somewhere along the lines of seeing guns as a positive feedback, self propelling problem. One huge problem ive got is with this 'out of the blue' murder argument?!! Im guessing this is a cultural difference between America and Britain, and I dont think its actually resolvable. Someone breaking into a house to murder who is inside - without any reason to, doesnt happen. Okay, I know...it does. But how many stories like this have you seen on the news in your life? 100? 1000? All of these stories will be reported on in a massive way, and a (comparative) handful of instances of fucking nutters on the loose with a hand canon in a whole nation is (in my eyes) a complete and total moot point. I dont know about you guys, but I would much, MUCH rather ignore this utter minority and not live my life in fear. And im sorry, but if you are someone who would consider owning a firearm to protect against things brought up in this thread (varying from pre-meditated murder to social collapse to a zombie apocalypse :lol: ) you ARE LIVING IN FEAR. And dont counter that by saying youre just being careful. You'll face thousands of times the risk on the road every time you take your family out in the car to pop to the park for fucks sake. In my eyes, people choose what they fear. And in America, the emphasis seems to be on the insane minority. Its already been mentioned numerous times just how insanely vast America is, yet an event like that will get mass news coverage and lead to the rest of the country bolting their doors shut. In my opinion you CANNOT prepare for events like that. They are too rare to base any part of your life on. Its like folding your pocket pair that flopped a full house just in case theyve got quads.

As a total side point by the way, I think its fair to say 99.99% of house entries are burglars looking to take shit and get out of there. Some will be armed. Who then do you think is more likely to get shot? The guy who owns the house who is submitting with their family? Or the guy who gets out their rusty 9mm under the bed to try and...I dont even know what?? John Mclane the fucking situation? Unless you actually are John Mclane im pretty sure 9/10 times youre going to be making what would have been a non violent situation suddenly life threatening. People arent out to kill people without needing to, but they will to protect their own life.

If this situation happened to me, the only response I can see that makes any sense is for you and anyone else in the house to just stay in one room, clearly in submission. Face on the floor so they know you havent seen them. Call me a pussy all you like, I dont give a FUCK about my possessions, but I think the idea that having a gun on you in this situation makes you safer is INCREDIBLY misguided.
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Re: WTF America... wtf...

Post by badger » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:54 pm

:z:

i know that shootings are far far far less common in the UK but we still get some nutters going on a random shooting spree. the difference is that when that happens here everyone says talks about how awful it is and they hope it doesn't happen again; but in the US most people's immediate thinking is that they need a gun to protect themselves. some things just can't be easily prevented and it's not worth worrying about

i'd still wager that the vast majority of shootings in the US aren't random ones or in home invasions, but rather gang related or the result of somone flipping out and killing someone known to them. the latter is extremely preventable by gun control and not allowing everyone to own a gun; and the former by sorting out the social mess in the US and making gang membership less appealing and preventing the turn of events that see a young man/woman falling into the trappings of gang life

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