Venus Project and Zeitgeist split

[capo ultra]

from a Zeitgeist mail-out:

The Zeitgeist Movement is no
longer in partnership with The Venus Project due to Jacque Fresco's
interest to keep a more centralized focus on his work.

[weedlefruit]

As interesting as the Venus project idea is, its maybe a little too imaginative. And expensive.

[test_recordings]

As interesting as the Venus project idea is, its maybe a little too imaginative. And expensive.

It's not about money, if you think that you should look in to it more.. It's a resource-based economy anyway and that will ultimately be a lot cheaper in terms of overall goods and welfare of life in the long-term as otherwise we'll stay in debt to a system that will spend itself to death!

from a Zeitgeist mail-out:

The Zeitgeist Movement is no
longer in partnership with The Venus Project due to Jacque Fresco's
interest to keep a more centralized focus on his work.

What channels of communication did this come through? I didn't get it... Doesn't matter though, they're still synergistic organisations. This isn't the end of a possible better future!

[capo ultra]

got it sent by Zeitgeist email mail out directly, here's the full email:

Friends,
Below is the updated Mission Statement of The Zeitgeist Movement.

As many in the community might be aware, The Zeitgeist Movement is no
longer in partnership with The Venus Project due to Jacque Fresco's
interest to keep a more centralized focus on his work.

While TZM supports and advocates the concepts that encompass TVP, The
Movement's focus has now become more open and flexible in its pursuit of a
'Resource Based Economic Model', inviting a larger community of sustainable
perspectives and activism than before.

Thank you.
ZM

- MISSION STATEMENT [Updated April 24th '11] -

>Founded in 2008, The Zeitgeist Movement is a Sustainability Advocacy
Organization which conducts community based activism and awareness actions
through a network of Global/Regional Chapters, Project Teams, Annual
Events, Media and Charity Work.

The Movement's principle focus includes the recognition that the majority
of the social problems which plague the human species at this time are not
the sole result of some institutional corruption, scarcity, a political
policy, a flaw of "human nature" or other commonly held assumptions of
causality in the activist community. Rather, The Movement recognizes that
issues such as poverty, corruption, collapse, homelessness, war, starvation
and the like appear to be "Symptoms" born out of an outdated social
structure.
While intermediate Reform steps and temporal Community Support are of
interest to The Movement, the defining goal here is the installation of a
new socioeconomic model based upon technically responsible Resource
Management, Allocation and Distribution through what would be considered
The Scientific Method of reasoning problems and finding optimized
solutions.

This "Resource-Based Economic Model” is about taking a direct technical
approach to social management as opposed to a Monetary or even Political
one. It is about updating the workings of society to the most advanced and
proven methods Science has to offer, leaving behind the damaging
consequences and limiting inhibitions which are generated by our current
system of monetary exchange, profits, corporations and other structural and
motivational components.

The Movement is loyal to a train of thought, not figures or institutions.
In other words, the view held is that through the use of socially targeted
research and tested understandings in Science and Technology, we are now
able to logically arrive at societal applications which could be profoundly
more effective in meeting the needs of the human population. In fact, so
much so, that there is little reason to assume war, poverty, 95% of most
crime and many other money-based scarcity effects common in our current
model cannot be resolved over time

The range of The Movement's Activism & Awareness Campaigns extend from
short to long term. The long term view, which is the transition into a
Resource-Based Economic Model, is a constant pursuit and expression, as
stated before. However, in the path to get there, The Movement also
recognizes the need for transitional Reform techniques, along with direct
Community Support.

For instance, while "Monetary Reform" itself is not an end solution
proposed by The Movement, the merit of such legislative approaches are
still considered valid in the context of transition and temporal integrity.
Likewise, while food and clothes drives and other supportive projects to
help those in need today is also not considered a long term solution, it is
still also considered valid in the context of helping others in a time of
need, while also drawing awareness to the principle goal.

The Zeitgeist Movement also has no allegiance to a country or traditional
political platforms. It views the world as a single system and the human
species as a single family and recognizes that all countries must disarm
and learn to share resources and ideas if we expect to survive in the long
run. Hence, the solutions arrived at and promoted are in the interest to
help everyone on the planet Earth, not a select group.<

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/

[test_recordings]

I'm still down with that, I don't fancy selling my children or those of others in to slavery, poverty and death from inconsiderate actions taken now, ultimately.

[capo ultra]

I know what your saying, but personally I don't plan on having children so I don't really care

[test_recordings]

I know what your saying, but personally I don't plan on having children so I don't really care

To quote Lao Tzu and his work the 'Dao De Jing': "Inaction is action". If you don't do anything about you are still permitting this to happen in a passive fashion, if you do not care please at least be considerate in your choices in life to prevent suffering.

[wolf89]

People are into Zeitgeist?

fuck that.

[cityzen]

I know what your saying, but personally I don't plan on having children so I don't really care

To quote Lao Tzu and his work the 'Dao De Jing': "Inaction is action". If you don't do anything about you are still permitting this to happen in a passive fashion, if you do not care please at least be considerate in your choices in life to prevent suffering.

10000 internet points for this

[test_recordings]

I know what your saying, but personally I don't plan on having children so I don't really care

To quote Lao Tzu and his work the 'Dao De Jing': "Inaction is action". If you don't do anything about you are still permitting this to happen in a passive fashion, if you do not care please at least be considerate in your choices in life to prevent suffering.

10000 internet points for this

It is good that someone sees the action of inaction, at least. Funny how your name mentions 'zen', I'm trying to practice the dharma as per zen doctrine detailed from the Diamond Sutra Prajnaparamita text. I cannot act for merit, though it may beget a heap of merit, for the tathagata (innate goodness in all of us) speaks of no mention of a reward of merit for acts though it beget a heap of merit... (...so one should not act for merit, but this comment on the sutra obfuscates the cutting nature of wisdom within it from the incomprehensible past mind, the incomprehensible present mind and the incomprehensible future mind)

[capo ultra]

I know what your saying, but personally I don't plan on having children so I don't really care

To quote Lao Tzu and his work the 'Dao De Jing': "Inaction is action". If you don't do anything about you are still permitting this to happen in a passive fashion, if you do not care please at least be considerate in your choices in life to prevent suffering.

[weedlefruit]

As interesting as the Venus project idea is, its maybe a little too imaginative. And expensive.

It's not about money, if you think that you should look in to it more.. It's a resource-based economy anyway and that will ultimately be a lot cheaper in terms of overall goods and welfare of life in the long-term as otherwise we'll stay in debt to a system that will spend itself to death!

So no one is going to pay for all of this to be set up? Saw something (although helpfully I cant find source) about something like $500K for housing and plots of land per unit.
But yeah I know its a resource based economy, an utterly fool proof system of course......

[capo ultra]

of course it won't cost any money to set up, that's why they don't ask for cash donations all the time....oh wait

[test_recordings]

As interesting as the Venus project idea is, its maybe a little too imaginative. And expensive.

It's not about money, if you think that you should look in to it more.. It's a resource-based economy anyway and that will ultimately be a lot cheaper in terms of overall goods and welfare of life in the long-term as otherwise we'll stay in debt to a system that will spend itself to death!

So no one is going to pay for all of this to be set up? Saw something (although helpfully I cant find source) about something like $500K for housing and plots of land per unit.
But yeah I know its a resource based economy, an utterly fool proof system of course......

You know how Germany did so well in World War 2? The other European powers sat back and scoffed at the idea of a resurgent Prussian empire because the Germans "didn't have enough gold"! Instead of arsing about for lack of a symbolic figure they just used what they could and really took everyone by surprise It's $500K in money, so just don't use money and use what's actually needed instead? Trying building something with $500K of physical currency and then you have something worth $500K or you can just make an efficient house out of the proper building materials... Money is just a symbolic figure of speculative worth, that's why prices change constantly as people keep trying to make more of it or shift loads of what they can't sell. Take the parable of King Midas and his 'golden touch', it was written to remind people that they gold (monetary currency) can't make them happy and they can't live off it: it's everything except gold (monetary currency) that is worthwhile in life. Don't forget money itself is worthless, it's what you get with it that really counts As highlighted on Sterling notes: "I promise to pay the bearer the sum of five/ten/twenty pounds"
A resource-based economy is a viable and logical economic system, the only reason it's not in use is the speculative monetary-based system is still in use based on the assumption that resources are infinite and therefore not worth including in calculations. We don't need to pay for this to be set up since everything that's needed to do it is already available so it's just a case of implementing it. Forget about money and think of it as everything just being able to work based on real things like fuel, food and building materials.
It would work like a huge, logical mathematical system which would be extremely easy to manage in comparison to the speculative ones that are cobbled together at the moment. That is the whole point of economics: to be economical with resources in an economic system. It's not meant to deliberately fiddle figures to make some people richer for no good reason, that's what monetary capitalism is for. The 'average person' gains about 10x more with an egaliatarian resource-based system since the current distribution is so unequal. The world's population produces enough food for 15 billion people and 1 billion out of 6 go hungry - that is not an efficient system - so a resource-based system would work out how much food is availabe and then how to distribute it so everyone has at least enough (it's what the electrical 'smart grids' are using). Please point out the possible problems with this.

I know what your saying, but personally I don't plan on having children so I don't really care

To quote Lao Tzu and his work the 'Dao De Jing': "Inaction is action". If you don't do anything about you are still permitting this to happen in a passive fashion, if you do not care please at least be considerate in your choices in life to prevent suffering.

At least you recognise the action of inaction, your mind can always be changed

of course it won't cost any money to set up, that's why they don't ask for cash donations all the time....oh wait

The use of money to advertise within a monetary system is logical as within the rules of the monetary system. To contrast, Belarus sold or is selling its planned economy (now the saracastic joke is that it's better to have no food or decent public services than live under Soviet Communism which is a corrupt system anyway) and there are some smaller scale communities operating on this principle (not technologically dead ones, either).

[capo ultra]

of course it won't cost any money to set up, that's why they don't ask for cash donations all the time....oh wait

The use of money to advertise within a monetary system is logical

of course it's logical, if you want to build a paradise where no one needs to work then the most logical thing to do would be to raise a shitload of money

[wolf89]

Sorry but the Venus project sounds like horse shit

[test_recordings]

of course it won't cost any money to set up, that's why they don't ask for cash donations all the time....oh wait

The use of money to advertise within a monetary system is logical

of course it's logical, if you want to build a paradise where no one needs to work then the most logical thing to do would be to raise a shitload of money

Money doesn't work for you, machines do. Now, due to recent technological advances, you can get machines that build machines It's well good, you can have a device like a printer and it layers up materials in to the required form. It will do anything from gloves to houses!
Why would you need loads of money to make a paradise where no-one works, anyway? We've already got a shit load of money 'floating' about in the world but everyone's still working! Do you know exactly how the recession happened? If you don't, it's because the banks make money up out of nothing and 'lend' it to people who then put it back in and then the banks 'lend' it again (up to 90% can generally be re-lent on any deposited amount)... the recession happened because everyone realised that not only were they buying in to a tower of cards with no decent foundation but also that the banks really couldn't justify what they were lending (it's referred to as 'negative equity' when something people invest in becomes worth less than they bought it for, 'toxic debt' is what it's called when it appears en masse explicitly and can't be shifted) so they tried to take it all out at around the same as it being devalued That's a bad double-drop

Sorry but the Venus project sounds like horse shit

How? I have heard horse shit and they aren't comparable

[wormcode]

Maybe it's good. Every time I mentioned Venus Project to someone or linked them to it, they were immediately turned off by the Zeitgeist connection. I always asked why, and only a couple out of maybe 12 or so people had actually seen it and disliked it. The others only made up their minds based on what they read about it in a summary or whatever. There's a stigma attached to it.

Zeitgeist isn't perfect by far, but I think stuff like that is important if only for promoting more discussion and questions from people who otherwise don't bother to think differently from what they've been brought up with. The same with The Venus Project really... just getting more ideas out there and letting people know there can be alternatives to this downward spiral of capitalism, fake money, and debt slavery. Even if it's only "idealistic" at this point in time. Planting seeds...

[capo ultra]

of course it won't cost any money to set up, that's why they don't ask for cash donations all the time....oh wait

The use of money to advertise within a monetary system is logical

of course it's logical, if you want to build a paradise where no one needs to work then the most logical thing to do would be to raise a shitload of money

Money doesn't work for you, machines do. Now, due to recent technological advances, you can get machines that build machines It's well good, you can have a device like a printer and it layers up materials in to the required form. It will do anything from gloves to houses!
Why would you need loads of money to make a paradise where no-one works, anyway? We've already got a shit load of money 'floating' about in the world but everyone's still working! Do you know exactly how the recession happened? If you don't, it's because the banks make money up out of nothing and 'lend' it to people who then put it back in and then the banks 'lend' it again (up to 90% can generally be re-lent on any deposited amount)... the recession happened because everyone realised that not only were they buying in to a tower of cards with no decent foundation but also that the banks really couldn't justify what they were lending (it's referred to as 'negative equity' when something people invest in becomes worth less than they bought it for, 'toxic debt' is what it's called when it appears en masse explicitly and can't be shifted) so they tried to take it all out at around the same as it being devalued That's a bad double-drop

yes yes we've all seen Zeitgeist, recession is planned, machines can built shit for us etc etc

all that blather has nothing to with the fact that it would cost a shitload to construct

[capo ultra]

The problem with Zeitgeist is they tell you a lot of useful stuff but wrap it all up in deliberately misinformed propaganda