Serious time, folks.

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kaiori breathe
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by kaiori breathe » Thu May 12, 2011 12:50 pm

I made this post in another thread, I'm gonna dump it here since it's relevant.

Problems with implementing a split forum:


How does it even work?

It can't just be open to everyone from the off, otherwise ChadDub and jrisreal and every other new member will just go straight to it and you'll end up in the same scenario you're in now; so do you get invited? If so what's the criteria?

Will it be done according to length of membership here? There are people here who've produced years but contribute very little to the forum, and equally people with posts counts in single digits who've only been here a few weeks who's every thread has been of a very high, educational level that's really helped. Lurkers really lose out here, they might not all have accounts but surely we should consider them too, I lurked for a good four months before I joined, there are people who have been lurking for years - they'd just get screwed over and stuck in the basic forum despite the length of time they'd been here hiding our and absorbing knowledge, and ultimately, this should be a place of free information where anybody can come and take from it without requirements being set for them to meet before hand. The problem with an advanced forum by merit of length of time you've been producing or a member of this forum is that there are too many exceptions to the general rule making it horribly unfair both on the people who don't get in and those who do (because they'll lose out on the contributions that could have been made by those who didn't get in)

Does it go by post count? If so, jrisreal gets in instantly despite his still being a n00b and not having much to contribute (which is essentially something at the core of this - people wanting a place to discuss deep and advanced topics regarding production) with regards to 'advanced production'.

Neither of those seem like viable ways of doing it. So there's only really one more route to take.

According to Contribution.

In that case, I probably wouldn't get in, as I have nothing to contribute to an advanced production forum, my production tech/knowledge isn't advanced. I still don't know what a compressor really does, or what a parabolic shaper is, or how reverb works and how that's different from delay. I literally know nothing. Somebody had to tell me who mala was a few months ago... MALA... Seriously, I'm a production idiot. I use all these things but I don't know what any of them do or where they came from or what I'm meant to do with them. I haven't made a single production related thread in my entire time on DSF simply because I've nothing to contribute in that realm (maybe in music theory and the likes but not production) because I know nothing. I just do stuff and sometimes it works.

Are my other contributions taken into consideration (music theory/answering questions/samples...etc)? If so the new forum again becomes kind of silly, because everyone gets in despite their knowing nothing about advanced production and we end up again in the same position we're in now where people who know nothing are making threads and getting in the way of these in depth discussions people want to have.

Essentially this advanced forum can only exist effectively as something that is inherently unfair - This enriches the path to knowledge for the few and hinders it for the many.

If it's made fair, then we end up in the same situation we're in now, with people like me in it who have nothing to contribute in terms of production knowledge who are there simply because it seemed unfair to leave us out.

You might think that it's not a problem being 'unfair', but this is a community, and if we're just going to be making little secret cool clubs that exclude people and prevent people from learning just because we find them a bit annoying or because they get in our way then really this place won't be any better than a school play ground where we make fun of the fat kid and tell him to go play on his own.

EDITii:

On another note

I'd very much like to see how this is going to be implemented laid out clearly by mods BEFORE it goes up for a vote.

If I were to vote for something like a split forum with an advanced section, then not get into said advanced section, I'd feel kinda cheated, so I think really, if something like this is going up for vote people really need to be informed on what exactly is going to happen with regards to deciding who gets in and who doesn't.

EDITiii:
badger wrote:even if this does happen, an exclusive forum is extremely unlikely. both because of the reasons kaiori mentioned, and for the simple fact that it would take a lot of work to keep the membership list maintained (and that would be something that the current production mods wouldn't have the necessary access to)

if it was decided to implement it then it would probably have to be a sub-forum within production with open access to anyone that wanted it
Well, there you go then, it won't be exclusive, or at least, it's highly unlikely to be.

As I've pointed out, I feel, this will make it a pointless endeavor to split the forum, since splitting the forum only works when it's inherently unfair and has some degree of exclusivity.

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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by pete_bubonic » Thu May 12, 2011 2:11 pm

I've thought long and hard about all the different ways a forum split would work and I just can't see how it will improve anything here. One forum (if not both) will end up dead. It does seem the main motivation of this is to separate the skrillex patch requests to actual production discussion. Which is the wrong look from the outset (number one because the creation and learning of creating such patches, resampling technique and composition is actually advanced), and if it were in the non advanced section, who the hell's going to answer it. Let alone the fact that people are generally lazy so they don't even read the guides of this forum, let alone adhere to them.

I'm sure it'll go to a vote and get pushed through, and then it'll die on it's arse in 3 months and people will be whinging that the mods have caused this. I'd rather not go through the ball ache myself.

I've spoken to Ivan/Dubway who has promised to dedicate some time to updating the forum next month with idea such as the karma system, the thread rating system, the inevitable restricted access forum and restricted posting privileges for new users (which will no doubt work out as certain amount of time and posts in existing threads before being able to start new ones). I think there's also a possibility of introducing a system where the search is triggered when new users start a thread (based on the thread title) and ask to confirm the new thread (though that'll be reliant on the god awful forum search functionality).

One of my main drives though is a compulsory tagging system for all new threads, as in a drop down menu selection of tagging the thread before it's posted, then being able to filter the forum views based on these tags. That means, you can have a 'skrillex/whatever cunty sound' tag and people can just filter the forum so they only see those tagged threads. Then us mods can just auto lock the new ones as there'll be hundreds available and visible to new users. but then the more pretentious amongst us can also have an advanced tag whereby it means advanced production methodology, no thread derailing and generally no fun. That way everyone is actually happy.
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futures_untold
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by futures_untold » Thu May 12, 2011 2:43 pm

All the stackexhange sites function as you've outlined above pretty much.

Startups.com has a great search function whereby existing threads are autolisted as one types a new thread title (as mentioned above). :)

Works well, and it's stopped me posting loads of times as I've had plenty of existing threads to work through already.

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Crosby
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by Crosby » Thu May 12, 2011 3:01 pm

So i haven't read much of this thread, even though i don't post a lot i do read this forum quite a bit.
We need to work more on building a community than a forum where people are going to join just to ask 1 question were the answers already been posted 100 times before.
Can it not be made so a user would need to post X amount of comments (say 25) before they can create a thread? this would make it so people who are joining would become established within the forum and get to grasp the rules etc before they create a topic. I think this would make people read the rules and use the sticky's. 99% of questions asked by new users can be answers in the sticky's anyway.
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by paradigm_x » Thu May 12, 2011 3:56 pm

pete bubonic wrote:I think there's also a possibility of introducing a system where the search is triggered when new users start a thread (based on the thread title) and ask to confirm the new thread (though that'll be reliant on the god awful forum search functionality).
Gearslutz does this. And thats nowhere near as bad as here. This would IMO solve 80% of the issues.

Why is the search so shit here anyway, other phbb are nowhere as bad.

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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by lysergene » Thu May 12, 2011 9:41 pm

Sounds good pete.

Thanks wub - although I would have thought coming here and saying I make deep bass music would be like going onto a football forum saying 'I like football' hehe

I'm up for helping anyone - it's all music, all good.

This frustrated me:

http://dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=198180

It was a valid question and although a tune was linked up it wasn't for feedback really, forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm still new.

Any Reason questions - ask me! :W:

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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by nowaysj » Thu May 12, 2011 9:53 pm

There is a bunch of stuff that I want to respond to but can't right now. Would just like to say that everything should work, but it WAS NOT WORKING. I think the ratios just got way to out of balance. Shit can be ignored, but when near everything is shit, everything gets ignored. Have to say this place has been AWESOME the past few days. It is like the lights went on and all the cockroaches went scurrying under the fridge, behind the cabinets.
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by lysergene » Thu May 12, 2011 9:59 pm

nowaysj wrote:There is a bunch of stuff that I want to respond to but can't right now. Would just like to say that everything should work, but it WAS NOT WORKING. I think the ratios just got way to out of balance. Shit can be ignored, but when near everything is shit, everything gets ignored. Have to say this place has been AWESOME the past few days. It is like the lights went on and all the cockroaches went scurrying under the fridge, behind the cabinets.

Yeah, well we're talking politics. Deciding how to deal with 'em, I know that sounds arrogant for a noob but... well I think it's just a statement of fact! :)

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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by jrisreal » Thu May 12, 2011 10:32 pm

kaiori breathe wrote:It can't just be open to everyone from the off, otherwise ChadDub and jrisreal and every other new member will just go straight to it and you'll end up in the same scenario you're in now; so do you get invited? If so what's the criteria?

Does it go by post count? If so, jrisreal gets in instantly despite his still being a n00b and not having much to contribute (which is essentially something at the core of this - people wanting a place to discuss deep and advanced topics regarding production) with regards to 'advanced production'.

Neither of those seem like viable ways of doing it. So there's only really one more route to take.

According to Contribution.

In that case, I probably wouldn't get in, as I have nothing to contribute to an advanced production forum, my production tech/knowledge isn't advanced. I still don't know what a compressor really does, or what a parabolic shaper is, or how reverb works and how that's different from delay. I literally know nothing. Somebody had to tell me who mala was a few months ago... MALA... Seriously, I'm a production idiot. I use all these things but I don't know what any of them do or where they came from or what I'm meant to do with them. I haven't made a single production related thread in my entire time on DSF simply because I've nothing to contribute in that realm (maybe in music theory and the likes but not production) because I know nothing. I just do stuff and sometimes it works.
Bro plz don't go there. I'm no noob...just a noob in certain aspects. And don't say I have nothing to contribute because if you paid attention to the majority of my posts, you would not say this

EDIT: And who isn't a noob in some aspect of production? You even called yourself a production idiot (which I doubt, by the way, I hear your stuff and call it genious) (btw if you really think all that of yourself, then I guess you should think I am more advanced than you, which as I already said, I doubt it). There's always something new to learn, right? And as I said, I am no beginner for production, I'm just a beginner to dubstep ... ive been producing for a few years bro. And I don't want this to sound like hate man, in all honesty, I have huge respect for you and alot of the other guys on this forum. I just don't like how people diss me about my post count without even thinking about the content of the posts that make up that count. I don't troll, atleast not on purpose, and the majority of the post count is related to competitions, collaborations, and helping noob producers with their questions. Please don't blame me for the DSFp crisis, or put me in the same category as Chad (no offense, Chad) ... but seriously, think about why I have 1000+ posts, not how fast I got them
Last edited by jrisreal on Fri May 13, 2011 7:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by jrisreal » Thu May 12, 2011 11:07 pm

I just got an idea for how to determine who may be in the advanced forum. Mods can develop a production-related test (like multiple choice stuff) and whoever passes has access to the advanced forum. If the person fails, they have a month to study up and take it again
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nowaysj
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by nowaysj » Thu May 12, 2011 11:14 pm

get your production license, lol. Gonna need insurance too.
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by jrisreal » Thu May 12, 2011 11:18 pm

nowaysj wrote:get your production license, lol. Gonna need insurance too.
Yeah kinda the same concept :lol:

EDIT: I want to know what you guys think of that idea. That way, it would be fair and based upon the user's real production skills and knowledge and ability to converse about more knowledgeable aspects of electronic music production and those people that qualify would be able to do so.
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by Huts » Fri May 13, 2011 4:50 am

No one answered (read?) my question so I'll ask again. What's stopping these "advanced" discussions from going on right now? The quality of current posts in no way affects the shit YOU can post. Someone posts a redundant thread/question, link them to where it's stickied and lock the thread. If no "advanced" discussion is going on now, what makes people think a separate forum is just going to spark them up? I mean this as a serious question
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nowaysj
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by nowaysj » Fri May 13, 2011 5:02 am

I think I've answered this a few times. Its about atmospheres and ratios! :lol:
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by tuckerlinen » Fri May 13, 2011 6:28 am

There are great threads in the production forum.

The recent one on aliasing is excellent.
As is kaiori's extensive (and well maintained) on modes.

I read the aliasing thread today but can't find it to give credit to the OP and contributors. Many people posting in this thread I recall. Anyway, maybe making DSF's search tool actually capable of finding threads relevant to keyword(s) might help.
I know it would help me.

I appreciate the perspective,both, of those advocating a split in production and those resisting. DSF's about community and communities should be all inclusive. But if you give everyone access to read the forum..

I get it though. The problem is that when there are only several hundred people reading a thread like 'aliasing' and a handful contributing it gets buried under all the nonsense. I (you) love spending time reading the forum but I (you) really want the time spent here to be as productive as possible. We only live once, our time is short.

People keep their tools organized so when you need that obscure socket you don't spend half an hour looking for it so that you can spend 30 seconds screwing in a single, but vital, bolt.
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by tuckerlinen » Fri May 13, 2011 7:21 am

Badger said that the chances of splitting the forum based on experience or whatever is unlikely. It's not a very practical solution inasmuch as it will require lots of time and energies to create, sort out, and maintain; I admit.

So, if there were to be an open subforum would there be any way to preserve its content?
Besides just hoping that it will be overlooked or respected?
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by jrisreal » Fri May 13, 2011 7:22 am

just having a subforum at all would probably solve the problem...no restriction required. i mean, noobs don't read stickies, so what makes you think theyre gona see a subforum?
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by Huts » Fri May 13, 2011 7:36 am

jrisreal wrote:just having a subforum at all would probably solve the problem...
:roll:
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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by jobbanaught » Fri May 13, 2011 11:43 am

jrisreal wrote:but seriously, think about why I have 1000+ posts, not how fast I got them

no friends in rl? :lol:




but seriously, theres tons of ppl here who have more knowledge and experience then you, and they dont clog up the place with 1000+ posts in 3 months - why do you think you should do that?

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Re: Serious time, folks.

Post by -[2]DAY_- » Fri May 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Jr walks into that one backwards with 'is pants down, innit
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