So many volume faders - recording hardware synths

[mrlithium]

Well I have a technical dilemma, I know that having the volume knobs set in the wrong place can introduce noise or lead to distortion.
Consider the following common wiring situation - where each has their own volume controls. (0-10) or (inf-0db):
Hardware Synths (a KORG MicroKORG XL + a AKAI miniAK + a KORG Electribe EMX-1) -------> Multichannel Hardware Mixer( Yamaha MG10/2 ) --------> Computer Audio In -------> Ableton (DAW)-------> Track Fader -------> Master Fader.
I am worried about what happens before the signal goes digital.
I want to achieve the correct volume level with the cleanest signal and least noise.
Should I be concerned about all this ? My biggest concern is the knobs on the hardware mixer and then the computer audio in level so that my Ableton Track volume fader can sit at 0db and my Ableton Master fader can sit at 0db as well.
On the hardware synths, before any sound even gets to the Master Volume knob to be output out its obviously controlled internally by a PreOsc Level,Post Filter Level,Program Level as well, not like it matters a ton at that point in the chain but I bring it up anyway.
The hardware mixer has channel gain, channel level, master level and headphones output volume; the phones output is sent to my computer's Audio In which has its own recording input volume control too. Then the signal goes digital where it encounters Ableton's track volume fader and Ableton's master Fader.

My settings now are for example:
Hardware Synth Master Volume set to 50%, ran into the Mixer Channel Gain (most confusing option of all and is set to a line I assume means 0db), to Mixer Channel Level - again set to an Arrow Line on the mixer that reads 8 out of 10, then Mixer Master Volume Control set to the same Line(80%). And the Phones output set to the same line (but on the phones control the line points to 5/10 or 50%).
The reason the Mixer Channel Gain is confusing is because in the manual it states its to adjust dynamic range and that I should turn the knob to avoid peaking but I find that one knob introduces the most amount of signal noise into the equation. The gain fader is labelled from a scale of +10 to -34 and -16 to -60 from left to right (first number indicates Line dB, second is Mic dB) - The arrow line on the gain fader points to around 30% but when I twist it to the right, (towards whats marked -34 and -60 at 100% position) - the sound just gets louder and louder and louder until it clips. This seems to be reverse - why would that be? So what dB is the line pointing to if its backwards. Whatever it is, with the knobs this way I must set computer record input to 100%. It sounds OK i just want to confirm what I'm doing - theres all these knobs, and I wish they were gone!

[contakt321]

I think you will achieve better sound quality if you:

1. Set your Hardware synth volume all the way up to maximum
2. Adjust your mixer channel gain up or down so that Ableton is receiving a signal about approximately -6db to -9db
3. Don't adjust the gain in Ableton until after the part is recorded - at which point, adjust it to the relative level you want it in the mix.

There is plenty of headroom, so a -6 to -9db boost is fine in Ableton, so really you are trying to achieve getting as much of your synth signal as possible, as little of your mixer (unless you like the sound of your mixer and are using it's preamps), and avoiding clipping while recording into Ableton.

This is my approach, maybe some other folks know better or differently - I am eager to hear if other folks have a better suggestion b/c I am curious too.

[Wrigzilla]

Ok, you want want to get the best possible signal to noise ratio from the get go. You want to have the output volume of the synth quite loud so that you don't have to compensate too much with the mixers channel gain and introduce more noise (so keep the gain well towards the line side). The idea is to get the level in the synth about right, do a little bit of fine tuning with the gain, and then it should all be fine to go into your soundcards adc.

For the channel level and master level on the mixer I would have said keep em at the 0db position, but after googling that mixer is doesn't have them labelled that way.

Line level signals are louder than mic level signals. The numbers on the mixer channel gain are referring to the comparative volumes of line vs mic. Confusing I know but the decibel is a comparative scale of measurement - it is only meaningful when you know what other measurement it is being compared to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel.

The manual should have the line level of the outputs in it, have a look; cos if it does you can use that as a guide to setting up the level of the channel gain.

[mrlithium]

For the channel level and master level on the mixer I would have said keep em at the 0db position, but after googling that mixer is doesn't have them labelled that way.

Thanks for the help. Theres a super technical page in the back of the manual, listing voltages, dBs, dBu and dBV of every IO port the mixer has in addition to THD and S/N. Every port is different and I'm now deep into some technical shit that I don't understand and beginning to question the quality of this mixer as its a few years old...
On the phones output port, the one going to my computer, it lists : Output Impedance = 100 ohms, Appropriate Impedance = "40 ohm phone", Rated Level = 3 mW, Max. Before clipping 75mW, Stereo Phone Jack. It's meant for headphones but I'm running a 1/8" wire to the computer with a 1/8th->1/4th" adapter at the mixer side. Is this bad? The Stereo Out goes to my monitor speakers. The mixer has stereo out, control room out, and phones out. Maybe I got it backwards and I'm supposed to hook my computer up to the dual 1/4" ST Out. That seems to make more sense and I will try that in a moment.

[nowaysj]

1. Set your Hardware synth volume all the way up to maximum

Depending on the synth, the amp quality varies. Some have little headroom and get noisy at maximum. Listen for it. If you have clean gain all the way to max use it, but likely you'll start hearing noise around 85-90% of max gain.

Do a little research around the term "unity gain", here is a quote that is likely less than the best, but something to get you started:

Question: What is Unity Gain?

A reader writes: "I keep hearing about the idea of "unity gain" when talking about microphone preamps and my recording mixer. What is unity gain, and how does it help?"
Answer: When we talk about "gain", we're talking about one device's ability to take the lower level of one signal and bring it to a higher voltage level. A great example of this is a microphone preamp; a preamp applies gain to amplify the signal coming from a microphone.

In the idea of unity gain, the input and the output between two devices are the same level. That's to say, when a microphone is outputting 0db, a mixer will also be outputting 0db worth of signal. Unity gain is established by calibrating two pieces of equipment to talk at the same level.

Frequently, the best way to set unity gain is to adjust a microphone or line signal gain to 0db, measured both at the preamp and output stage, and then match that 0db level simultaneously on the input of the second piece of equipment -- whether an amplifier, recording software, or mixer.

Unity gain is useful for several reasons. First, it gives significantly cleaner and non-distorted signal. Microphones will sound much fuller and with much better dynamic range. There will also be a much easier time applying outboard effects, as most effects units are set to accept a unity signal.

[contakt321]

Depending on the synth, the amp quality varies. Some have little headroom and get noisy at maximum. Listen for it. If you have clean gain all the way to max use it, but likely you'll start hearing noise around 85-90% of max gain.

I agree, I should have been clearer, I was speaking very generally.

Thankfully, none of the synths I own have a problem pushed that loud.

...that and I like a little bit of noise anyway...

[fhsueh]

Agree with Contakt. I start with the loudest/useable signal from the synth. Then use my rack mixer to bring the level down to the point that it shows up in my DAW as somewhere around -18db. Leaving track and master faders at 0db. Typically try to avoid increasing the level once it leaves the synth. I'm in Cubase.

[mrlithium]

Wow you would not believe the difference in signal noise between the various outputs and knobs................Thanks for the advice, I'm still trying to come up with the best solution. Turns out the channel gain on my mixer is backwards..... or labeled wrong or I'm an idiot. According to the manual its meant to adjust between -60dB to -16dB Mic and -34 to +10dB Line because It also supports a Mic. But the gain knob is backwards....... The stats of my Line Input3/4 gain knob goes from -34dB to +10dB or 15.5mV to 2.45 V (with a mic its -60dB to -16dB and 0.775mV - 123mV), except its backwards. The +10dB is on the left side and the -34 dB is on the right side, and when I twist it right - the gain rises and clips. The noise skyrockets when maxed. Also my Akai MINIAK synth seems to be quite noisy above 50-60% volume knob when the mixer gain knob is maxed out(maxed turned right, reading -34db....). my MicroKORG XL is extremely clean absolutely no noise at 100% volume however.

[contakt321]

Try using the stereo Line Inputs on channels 7/8 or 9/10, see how that works

[nowaysj]

Yamaha knows how to build a mixer. Wtf is going on with those knobs?

[mrlithium]

Not any less noisy. http://www.MegaShare.com/3274257 That link is a 3 second .wav file of the background noise I pick up when everythings set up right. Its not bad but its not good either. I determined I want my gain knob towards the left, on the arrowmark - for the least pre-amplification of signal noise. Channels 7/8 or 9/10 don't have gain knobs and they input the signal at -10dB instead of being able to vary it with the knob, and they also will clip at +10dBu instead of +30dBu, so its less forgiving, its really more along the lines of a Tape in or CD in or something along those lines cause it has the RCA ports above 7/8 9/10

[mrlithium]

This is a picture of the mixers backwards numbers, I labeled them in if its hard to read.

[nowaysj]

WTF man! I've seen a lot of gain knobs. Never seen that! Wait, are they multipurpose, like one part of the range is for line level, and the other part of the range is for the mic? Madness.

[mrlithium]

WTF man! I've seen a lot of gain knobs. Never seen that! Wait, are they multipurpose, like one part of the range is for line level, and the other part of the range is for the mic? Madness.

yeah +10 to 34 is for line level and -16 to -60 is for mic but its still backwards.....

[nowaysj]

So in one direction the gain goes up, and in the other direction the gain goes up. Cheers Japan, that is crafty!

[Sharmaji]

yeah output noise on synths is an age old problem.

use gain to shape the sound-- even try running into a mic input and battering it w/ 60db of gain. see what it does for the strength of the sound. then turn it down w/ the channel fader so that you don't clip anything going into the computer.

if i'm recording something w/ some big-sounding square waves- ie, my little stylophone-- i've definitely gone into channel A on my mic pre, given it like 50db of gain, turned it down a bit, and then gone in from the line out of channel A into the mic in of channel B and done the same again. all these little changes in gain and impedance can really add dimension to your sound. use the mixer, it's a great tool!

[mrlithium]

So in one direction the gain goes up, and in the other direction the gain goes up. Cheers Japan, that is crafty!

no it only goes up to the right, when its facing -60 and -34

[nowaysj]

I give up! No clue how those knobs are working.

[mrlithium]

yeah output noise on synths is an age old problem.

use gain to shape the sound-- even try running into a mic input and battering it w/ 60db of gain. see what it does for the strength of the sound.........like 50db of gain, turned it down a bit, and then gone in from the line out of channel A into the mic in of channel B and done the same again. all these little changes in gain and impedance can really add dimension to your sound. use the mixer, it's a great tool!

I just tried this and yeah its great - It feels like it fattened up the sound, I like the way my Electribe sounds through it like this.

[Ldizzy]

rule of thumb for a clean mix and proper gain architecture is :

Boost as early as possible, with attention to overboosting artifacts.

that should get u going.