Sub Bass Confusion

[poundcake42]

Hi, this is my first time posting. Been reading this for a while, researching, blah blah, before I produce anything. I've played around with FL way back in 07 to 09 off and on and it was very VERY noobie things. Mostly using the sequencer and synth presets (didnt even know I was using a synth ). Now I got a hold of Cubase 5 and have been exploring it and steadily reading the operation manual.

Now on to the meat of my question. I tried the 808 kick sampling chopping thing for my sub and I got it going and chopped out a good sounding single wavelength using Battery as my sampler. Now I suppose this is more of a composition issue, but are subs for the most part a single note following the rhythm of.... something? (drums, synths?) or do they have progression of different notes on the sequencer (but lower on the register) following another instrument with a note progression?
I've read through a lot of the guide that is up, but a lot of it uses assumed previous knowledge and terminology that I have yet to encounter.

I've been searching, but maybe I just fail at searching, but I can't find any sort of intro to where the parts of a modern electronic music tune sit. I understand some of the tech, especially the multitude of mid range bass threads, but what is the position of it as opposed to a lead synth. I mostly confused on this part from listening to songs where a mid range is the main instrument being heard. What is the purpose of the lead synth and how does one single it out whilst listening to tunes?

[Basic A]

whichever sounds right... sometimes they layer with midrange basses/leads to form a melodic element, sometimes they are just a rhythmic bonus...

[poundcake42]

In the case of using a chopped kick sample, would it be assumed that to use that, it'd be a single note with rhythm and movement coming from processing? I can't see how a sampled sub bass could gave a note progression unless you repeated the sample on multiple parts of the sampler and then just pitch shifted each to create a false note register? O_o

[Basic A]

In the case of using a chopped kick sample, would it be assumed that to use that, it'd be a single note with rhythm and movement coming from processing? I can't see how a sampled sub bass could gave a note progression unless you repeated the sample on multiple parts of the sampler and then just pitch shifted each to create a false note register? O_o

idk, on the default fl sampler you can play notes... as long as your wavecycle is tuned to c it could be melodic in nature...

You might be better using a raw sine wave for a sub though... that 808-wavecycle thing seems a bit silly to me, alot of work for something that is audiophilic at best...

[poundcake42]

OK, thank you. Other than the guide, would you know of any recommended reading for an introduction to the terminology and suuuuuper basics? I read through a lot of the threads on the bible, but I feel like I'm missing some bits and pieces throughout. I get the main bulk of most threads, but I lose some of the technical details. I honestly think there are some things flying over my head. I am also currently reading through music theory for computer musicians, and after that I have music composition for computer musicians. Do you think the composition text would be the one where I start to learn the fundamental working parts of electronic music and in part dub?

Perhaps the biggest confusion I encounter is when people talk about mixing and mastering. I get the basics of it, leveling out the various audio sources to prevent clipping and still have the dynamic range, but when people start talking dBs, dBFS, VU I end up in quagmire.

[Basic A]

OK, thank you. Other than the guide, would you know of any recommended reading for an introduction to the terminology and suuuuuper basics? I read through a lot of the threads on the bible, but I feel like I'm missing some bits and pieces throughout. I get the main bulk of most threads, but I lose some of the technical details. I honestly think there are some things flying over my head. I am also currently reading through music theory for computer musicians, and after that I have music composition for computer musicians. Do you think the composition text would be the one where I start to learn the fundamental working parts of electronic music and in part dub?

Perhaps the biggest confusion I encounter is when people talk about mixing and mastering. I get the basics of it, leveling out the various audio sources to prevent clipping and still have the dynamic range, but when people start talking dBs, dBFS, VU I end up in quagmire.

1. Dub isnt computer music... dubstep is... I know it probably seems kinda nit-picky to point that out, but you wouldnt call an industrial track 'rock' or a breakcore track 'metal' would you? Dub is the genre of music that dubstep artists initially drew inspiration from, but for the most part it was an early 90's organic music genre, with real instruments, human timing, ect... And when people say 'dub' when they mean 'dubstep' it kinda seems to disrespect whole genre of music which at the time, was incredibly groundbreaking both musically and culturally.... so yeah, no snide-ism, just saying, if I didnt point that out, someone would have pointed it out to you in a very rude manner lol, so might as well get it over with.

2. Music theory is a great place to start, but remember there is no difference between traditional music theory and music theory for electronic music... they both still have the same keys, scales, ect. These rules have been around since the dawn of western music, havent changed much... Any books will do, dont worry about them being specifically computer-oriented...

3. mixdowns will come to make sense over time, but a good place to start would be your mixer... Are you still using FLStudio? If you look along each mixer's meter, there are a bunch of numbers in negative values leading up to 0 at the very top... these are the dBs, and zero is called unity gain... You've basically got the jist of it when you said you should keep everything low to prevent clipping... But, a good thing to remember is in (most) edm tracks made after-the-dnb-revolution, the kicks/snares/bassy-percussion are usually the highest db element in the mix, followed by midrange sounds/leads, and subs sit somewhere just below the mid's/leads... its not a hard-rule, but, its a bit of an idea...

Try comparing your tracks to some of the artists you enjoy... Preferably, if you can get ahold of them, unmastered copies of the tracks... What loudest in the mix? Whats quietest? Try balancing your tracks elements with the ones in the pro's tunes, things will start to come together. Mixdown wise though, dont worry about the numbers, keep it under zero, and do what sounds good from there. there are no rules, and numbers tend to trick people into thinking there are.

[amphibian]

In the case of using a chopped kick sample, would it be assumed that to use that, it'd be a single note with rhythm and movement coming from processing? I can't see how a sampled sub bass could gave a note progression unless you repeated the sample on multiple parts of the sampler and then just pitch shifted each to create a false note register? O_o

You've basically just repeated your previous question. And to reiterate what Basic A said - it depends. On the tune. When you sample anything, depending on how you set it up in your sampler (aka, not battery), you can play it up and down the scales.

[poundcake42]

Dub isnt computer music... dubstep is... I know it probably seems kinda nit-picky to point that out, but you wouldnt call an industrial track 'rock' or a breakcore track 'metal' would you? Dub is the genre of music that dubstep artists initially drew inspiration from, but for the most part it was an early 90's organic music genre, with real instruments, human timing, ect... And when people say 'dub' when they mean 'dubstep' it kinda seems to disrespect whole genre of music which at the time, was incredibly groundbreaking both musically and culturally.... so yeah, no snide-ism, just saying, if I didnt point that out, someone would have pointed it out to you in a very rude manner lol, so might as well get it over with.

no worries. I know a bit about the origin of dubstep and how it came from dub music (I'm still exploring the origins so I'm very noobie in my knowledge of that) Happily I'm not one of the msinformed thinking dubstep came out of nowhere and started like 2 years ago lol. I'm just a lazy ass typing and just typed dub xD


The music thoery book I mentioned is pretty useful, since it teaches a lot of theory from the perspective of a DAW. It's pretty standard as far as the actual theory goes and just adds how to use it in practice in a DAW or score editor.
I'm coming from a drumming background so music theory has been.. rough lol. Completely new, but I'm learning so much! DSF is damn good in pointing out resources. Just needed some clarification for which you have my thanks.




And I'm using Cubase 5 now. Exploring it's... complexity >.>

You've basically just repeated your previous question. And to reiterate what Basic A said - it depends. On the tune. When you sample anything, depending on how you set it up in your sampler (aka, not battery), you can play it up and down the scales.

I've been searching google and dsf for a sampler, but all I get is discussions on using them and not any on names. Battery is the only thing I've gleaned out and a plugin called kontakt. What would be an example of a cheap or freeware sampler that works as you say?


EDIT: I dont have Kontakt btw just battery

[amphibian]

Battery IS a sampler, but it's specifically for drums/stabs.etc. what DAW you working in? IN logic, you can use the EXS24, in ableton live - the (funnily enough) Sampler instrument. Every DAW has one that I'm aware of.

[poundcake42]

xDDDDDDD I've said Cubase 5 twice lol just teasing.
Trying to find the sampler... The builtins are Groove Agent One, HALionOne, Spector, Mystic, Loopmash and Prologue

[amphibian]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=cubase+5+sampler

[poundcake42]

Ah figures. Doesn't come with a built in sampler. xD
I'll trying Kontakt, seems like it has a lot of support and thumbs up. Thanks for the help!
Fully appreciated.

[mks]

1. Dub isnt computer music... dubstep is... I know it probably seems kinda nit-picky to point that out, but you wouldnt call an industrial track 'rock' or a breakcore track 'metal' would you? Dub is the genre of music that dubstep artists initially drew inspiration from, but for the most part it was an early 90's organic music genre, with real instruments, human timing, ect... And when people say 'dub' when they mean 'dubstep' it kinda seems to disrespect whole genre of music which at the time, was incredibly groundbreaking both musically and culturally.... so yeah, no snide-ism, just saying, if I didnt point that out, someone would have pointed it out to you in a very rude manner lol, so might as well get it over with.

Basic A, thank you for marking the distinction between Dub and Dubstep but we cannot have misinformation being spread. Dub actually dates all they back to the late '60's / early '70's.

1. Dub isnt computer music... dubstep is...

There is plenty of computerized dub. Check out Iration Steppas, Vibronics, Jah Warrior, The Disciples, Rootsman, Mixman, Mad Professor, Alpha & Omega, Henry & Louis. That is just the short list.

No snide-ism...

[mks]

Now I suppose this is more of a composition issue, but are subs for the most part a single note following the rhythm of.... something? (drums, synths?) or do they have progression of different notes on the sequencer (but lower on the register) following another instrument with a note progression?

Both. Basslines should be supporting and contributing to the rhythm while outlining the harmony and key by playing the root note of the chord structure. Usually the most effective basslines are ones that hold down the root note in conjunction with with rhythm, but then the flourishes happen when you play other notes within the chord or key.

[hifi]

Hi, this is my first time posting. Been reading this for a while, researching, blah blah, before I produce anything. I've played around with FL way back in 07 to 09 off and on and it was very VERY noobie things. Mostly using the sequencer and synth presets (didnt even know I was using a synth ). Now I got a hold of Cubase 5 and have been exploring it and steadily reading the operation manual.

Now on to the meat of my question. I tried the 808 kick sampling chopping thing for my sub and I got it going and chopped out a good sounding single wavelength using Battery as my sampler. Now I suppose this is more of a composition issue, but are subs for the most part a single note following the rhythm of.... something? (drums, synths?) or do they have progression of different notes on the sequencer (but lower on the register) following another instrument with a note progression?
I've read through a lot of the guide that is up, but a lot of it uses assumed previous knowledge and terminology that I have yet to encounter.

I've been searching, but maybe I just fail at searching, but I can't find any sort of intro to where the parts of a modern electronic music tune sit. I understand some of the tech, especially the multitude of mid range bass threads, but what is the position of it as opposed to a lead synth. I mostly confused on this part from listening to songs where a mid range is the main instrument being heard. What is the purpose of the lead synth and how does one single it out whilst listening to tunes?

sub sounds just right in the key of F. also its just a simple sine patch with a short attack/release. full sustain. sorry if I didn't answer your question at all

[Basic A]

1. Dub isnt computer music... dubstep is... I know it probably seems kinda nit-picky to point that out, but you wouldnt call an industrial track 'rock' or a breakcore track 'metal' would you? Dub is the genre of music that dubstep artists initially drew inspiration from, but for the most part it was an early 90's organic music genre, with real instruments, human timing, ect... And when people say 'dub' when they mean 'dubstep' it kinda seems to disrespect whole genre of music which at the time, was incredibly groundbreaking both musically and culturally.... so yeah, no snide-ism, just saying, if I didnt point that out, someone would have pointed it out to you in a very rude manner lol, so might as well get it over with.

Basic A, thank you for marking the distinction between Dub and Dubstep but we cannot have misinformation being spread. Dub actually dates all they back to the late '60's / early '70's.

1. Dub isnt computer music... dubstep is...

There is plenty of computerized dub. Check out Iration Steppas, Vibronics, Jah Warrior, The Disciples, Rootsman, Mixman, Mad Professor, Alpha & Omega, Henry & Louis. That is just the short list.

No snide-ism...

I know it started in the early 60's and 70's but theres no real denying that it didnt become the like, social force it had the potential to be until the 90's, right before the rise of ska, with Mad professor and perry uniting, ect... I was jsut throwing the date around because it would take people to what (imo) was the hay-day of dub... You could say that Punk started in the 60's too, but it wasnt a FORCE until the late 70's an 80's... like I said, pointing at hayday's, not origins, if you look at my post I said 'for the most part' because thats jus tthe fact - most dub records were 90's releases, sure it was around before that, but not in the quanity it was... Your right though, should be specified.

And yeah, okay, Mad Professor... Correct me if Im wrong, but stuff he did before True Born and all that would have been all organic wouldnt it? And even the stuff he did in the 90's, seems it'd mostly be hardware work using the daw as a cheaper way to do multitrack recording... Granted, Im sure the stuff he's done this millennium has probably been software heavy, but I like living the fantasy that he was jamming with a tangled mess of wires and pedals!

I like this conversation, we need a thread one day.

[mks]

To me, Jah Shaka and Mad Professor were the two people that bridged old school Jamaican dub with modern UK dub.

And yeah, this could be it's own thread easily.

[poundcake42]

sub sounds just right in the key of F. also its just a simple sine patch with a short attack/release. full sustain. sorry if I didn't answer your question at all

Wouldn't the rest of the track have to be in the same key? I'm still learning theory so pleeeeeease correct me if I'm wrong. Which I rather think I am, I just haven't gotten to the sections on mixing keys

[hifi]

sub sounds just right in the key of F. also its just a simple sine patch with a short attack/release. full sustain. sorry if I didn't answer your question at all

Wouldn't the rest of the track have to be in the same key? I'm still learning theory so pleeeeeease correct me if I'm wrong. Which I rather think I am, I just haven't gotten to the sections on mixing keys

yup that is why a lot of tracks are in key of E,F,or G. you can have your sub in any key its just that it sounds perfect in F

[amphibian]

different notes resonate with different people. For me, I find A to be the utmost beautiful note, about half my tunes are written in A. I quite like D also.