Sample Workflow VS MIDI Workflow

[Schwarzwald]

I got Ableton Live not too long ago to check out the hype I'd been hearing, and after a few weeks with it, I can say I see how people are raving about. Although, being a long time FL User, the lack of a powerful MIDI editors pretty a deal breaker when it comes to composition, however, sequencing is probably Lives strong suit anyway.

ANYWAY...

I talked around to those I knew who had it, as well as on forums to see what they were doing with it, how they were going about creating their songs, and I was surprised to see a whole lot of them used Abletons quick Freeze-then-flatten method for making Dubstep (I also heard Mt. Eden speak about doing it in Reason) If you still don't know what I'm talking about...you make a line (or in one videos case, a part of a wobble) just one part of it, then you freeze it, and flatten it down into a sample. Then you make multiple variations, freeze them, and then flatten them. This make the project solely based off samples.

I'll admit samples would make your project look prettier. No automation clips to distract your view, however, wouldn't you lose some dynamic? Since synths usually decay and fluctuate differently everytime you trigger them, wouldn't it become noticeable you were hearing the same thing after awhile, I mean personally, not your listeners/others.

Although, you CAN do a crap ton of things with samples, but anyway...

I'm really just curious, because being somehow who only bounces down/flattens things when I'm trying to save some CPU, I was just a tad surprised there was a whole other way to go about things that almost everyone I knew was doing except me. I doubt I change my own workflow, but I'm curious to see what people think about each workflow, or if there were other ways to go about things during the arrangement process?

[Volento]

Naw dogg. Unless something is finalized synth wise 100% (usually not till the middle of mixing) I guarantee you even MT eden doesn't flatten until they're be all and done all with that track.

You must be confused with the idea of RESAMPLING in which case, yeah.. they'll freeze then flatten or drag out audio into an audio channel, do some effecting and either rinse and repeat or chop and arrange.

Again though.. if someone is using a synth patch as a lead pretty much uneffected i can guarantee 95% of the time they won't be freezing or flattening it, because you won't be able to fatten it up with just the synth settings later on.

For the most part though there's a slight hesitance in most of us to leave the plugs in any channel intact as long as possible.

[mks]

Although, being a long time FL User, the lack of a powerful MIDI editors pretty a deal breaker when it comes to composition, however, sequencing is probably Lives strong suit anyway.

What kind of MIDI editing are you referring to specifically? Also, are you just using internal midi editing using VST's?

I have ran all sorts of hardware and software via MIDI with Ableton and have yet to come against a problem that could not be solved.

As far as work flow, I use both depending on the situation. But I do use MIDI quite extensively.

[Schwarzwald]

Naw dogg. Unless something is finalized synth wise 100% (usually not till the middle of mixing) I guarantee you even MT eden doesn't flatten until they're be all and done all with that track.

You must be confused with the idea of RESAMPLING in which case, yeah.. they'll freeze then flatten or drag out audio into an audio channel, do some effecting and either rinse and repeat or chop and arrange.

Again though.. if someone is using a synth patch as a lead pretty much uneffected i can guarantee 95% of the time they won't be freezing or flattening it, because you won't be able to fatten it up with just the synth settings later on.

For the most part though there's a slight hesitance in most of us to leave the plugs in any channel intact as long as possible.

I guess I meant resampling, heres the interview I was referring to:

Although, being a long time FL User, the lack of a powerful MIDI editors pretty a deal breaker when it comes to composition, however, sequencing is probably Lives strong suit anyway.

Ummm, mannnn, well for starters the lack of the same tools i.e. chopping, FL's "Riff maker" or whatever tool that allows key changing humanization, etc, as well as being able to automate pitch and release in the editor, mouse wheel scrolling in the editor (and in general actually) but specifically being able to resize notes so some are bigger than others or being able to make the notes bigger in general without going into fold mode, plus scale leveling, being able to see the MIDI notes of other channels in the background of the editor for quicking cross checking, being able to put audio samples in the background of the midi editor to sync up beats, and a few other things that are escaping me right now...

IDK, it just left much to be desired, given, I've been using FL for some 5 years now, so I'm most definitely bias/familiar, and I've only had Ableton maybe a month or two and only really tried to use it in the last 2 weeks. I'd love to educated on it. I really love the way its setup. Its funny, when I was using it to fool around, I kept thinking how much I wanted to be using FL instead, but then when I went to FL I felt like I'd been shafted and wanted to go back to Ableton. I've been told just to Rewire FL into Ableton or use FL as a VSTi inside for its Piano Roll.

What kind of MIDI editing are you referring to specifically? Also, are you just using internal midi editing using VST's?

I have ran all sorts of hardware and software via MIDI with Ableton and have yet to come against a problem that could not be solved.

As far as work flow, I use both depending on the situation. But I do use MIDI quite extensively.

[mks]

Sounds like you are really used to FL.
I have never used FL, so I am unfamiliar with the MIDI tools it provides.

A lot of those things that you described can be done with ableton and it has it's own midi effect section in the effects browser. I am sure that FL probably has some things that Live doesn't and vice versa.

Probably a lot of workflow differences between the two programs.

[nowaysj]

I guarantee you even MT eden doesn't flatten until they're be all and done all with that track.

Funniest shit I've read on dsf in a long time.

Honestly, live's midi editing is primitive compared to fl. Never mind features, just in terms of ui, fl is "slicker than dear guts on the interstate" to quote a southern gentleman I once had the pleasure to encounter.

And OP, I used to do all my projects with a tun of midi, and a tun of fx channels, but now almost everything ends up as audio. Like the midi phase of a track will be at the beginning, and as I work, the midi begins to disappear and audio takes its place. At a certain point, a track needs to get real, needs to come together, that's when my stuff starts to go to audio. Doesn't mean editing or even writing is done with, but it is real time.

[Schwarzwald]

Word, is it so you commit fully to the track, or are there certain things you feel like you can do with samples you can't do with MIDI data?

[Ayatollah]

Word, is it so you commit fully to the track, or are there certain things you feel like you can do with samples you can't do with MIDI data?

makes repitching, inverting, transposing etc a lot easier

[nowaysj]

There are a lot of reasons to work with audio. But yes, there is much to do with audio that cannot be done with midi. Midi is a stunningly simplistic framework for triggering sounds from sound modules. Audio is, by comparison, far far richer. Granted in some respects midi is more flexible, which is why it appears at the beginning of things. At a certain point that flexibility and ephemerality is a liability.

[VirtualMark]

this is an interesting topic. from my experience, the advantages of midi are that you can go back and change the notes and synth settings easily. advantages of audio is that it saves cpu, you can apply other effects, i.e pitch bend on audio can sound different than through midi, reverse, cut n paste, fades etc. you can also load said audio into a sampler and mess with it even more.

what i tend to do is to bounce the audio out, and freeze the midi track. so the vst is unloaded but i can unfreeze later if i want to go back and change anything. i chuck all my frozen tracks into a backup folder(this is in cubase).

i've recently discovered ableton too, as i mainly use cubase. ableton is pretty awesome at what it does, but i don't agree that it has great midi editing capabilities. unless i've missed something, as i say i've only recently started using it. cubase has stacks of tools for cutting/gluing/muting etc, i didn't see this much on ableton.

i understand what nowaysj is saying too. its good to commit to a track, as i find that i can tweak a synth forever sometimes, and each time i listen i might want to change it. so if its in audio its more final. plus once bounced the audio is saved, whereas you could accidentally change a parameter in a synth and not have it sounding right.