gain structure and mixing aka THE MONEYSHOT THREAD

[xrylex]

thanks wirez and nowaysj! really appreciate the replies. the "setting the gain at the source" aspect is exactly what i was curious about.. thanks!

[kaushikm]

First time poster so I ask for patience please.

Does anyone here make tracks with a specific venue's sound system in mind?

For instance here are the subwoofer specs for a venue here in Washington DC with a high end Martin system:

WS 218X sub woofers -- FREQUENCY RESPONSE 35Hz-150Hz ± 3dB
http://www.martin-audio.com/products/WS218X.asp

So if I wanted to write and mix a tune that would take full advantage of this system, especially for bass, what techniques would work best?

I'm interested in mixing and mastering approaches, but am also curious about programming synths (bass specifically) so they sound the best they possibly can in a sound system with the above specs.

Specifically any thoughts on how to use a spectrum analyzer to hone in the right frequencies to make the bass speakers really pump?

thanks

[wirez]

First time poster so I ask for patience please.

Does anyone here make tracks with a specific venue's sound system in mind?

For instance here are the subwoofer specs for a venue here in Washington DC with a high end Martin system:

WS 218X sub woofers -- FREQUENCY RESPONSE 35Hz-150Hz ± 3dB
http://www.martin-audio.com/products/WS218X.asp

So if I wanted to write and mix a tune that would take full advantage of this system, especially for bass, what techniques would work best?

I'm interested in mixing and mastering approaches, but am also curious about programming synths (bass specifically) so they sound the best they possibly can in a sound system with the above specs.

Specifically any thoughts on how to use a spectrum analyzer to hone in the right frequencies to make the bass speakers really pump?

thanks

Probably one of the most interesting first posts I've ever seen. I like the weirdness of it, fair play to you

Can't answer the question as I've never tried it, but it would be an interesting experiment!

You'll succeed at life and in music if you avoid conforming to the norm like this

[macc]

Speaker specs don't tell you anything about the room, its behaviour/response, how it sounds with 10/50/100/1000 people in there, blah blah. Second guessing a system might work for one set of circumstances but could be totally bolloxed by another. What if your party does really badly and no-one comes? What if it is a huge success and there areten times more people there than you thought? What if the in-house engineer is sick and you get the stand-in? Etc etc.

Further, are you 100% certain that that is the ONLY place your stuff will ever get played? You don't want to aim a little bit bigger than that?

Being perfectly honest, the only thing that matters is the same as always; make it sound as good as you possibly can and it will likely sound as good as it possibly can on that system, in all circumstances. While there are fairly extreme cases where this breaks down (telephone lines, stadium sound systems maybe, etc), in general it's best practice.

Conforming to the norm ftw

[atticuh]

Just recently I posted a tune to soundcloud with quite a bit of stereo width on my ambience; however, it seems as if soundcloud has made it narrower.

Are there any workarounds for preserving stereo width when uploading to SoundCloud? I tried using .wav files as well as 128kb and 320kb mp3s to no avail.

Would love some suggestions.

[wirez]

It's all in your head, Soundcloud preserves quality to a T

[nowaysj]

lol troll, soundcloud can sound like pooo

[wirez]

lol troll, soundcloud can sound like pooo

Nah honestly, if it sounds shit on Soundcloud it probably sounded shit before the upload

[atticuh]

I dunno, whyrez. What I'm noticing is either:

1) A decrease in stereo width
2) SoundCloud compression is causing a decrease in the perceived loudness of my track.

I know my tune doesn't sound shit either in wav or on SoundCloud. The devil is in the details and I feel as if the difference is taking away from my track.

The difference is much more noticeable with my monitoring cans. I can upload the wav file to another location and link the SoundCloud link. :/

[antipode]

OK noise floor question. I've been bouncing tunes down in FL, and then normalising or boosting the gain on them in cooledit after the fact. This would as far as I know also boost the noise floor. Is this a real issue? I usually only boost them a few dbs, they weren't like -30 or anything. I've never really noticed a problem. But would it be undesirable for a finished tune that's going to get mastered/cut?
And yes I'm aware I should probably be doing this with the mixer in FL before I even bounce it.

fanks

[skimpi]

OK noise floor question. I've been bouncing tunes down in FL, and then normalising or boosting the gain on them in cooledit after the fact. This would as far as I know also boost the noise floor. Is this a real issue? I usually only boost them a few dbs, they weren't like -30 or anything. I've never really noticed a problem. But would it be undesirable for a finished tune that's going to get mastered/cut?
And yes I'm aware I should probably be doing this with the mixer in FL before I even bounce it.

fanks

hmm i dont think it should matter too much, theres not gonna be much of a noise floor when bouncing internally, its not like its a live recording with lots of hum and hiss in the background, and its only a few dbs as you say, but if its gonna get mastered why boost it, they are only gonna boost it themselves, but if your self mastered then yeah boost it. i normally bounce like from like -2db to sometimes -6db and then ill put it back into logic and add gain and limit it to get it louder.

[Evol_Evolve]

Thanks to Macc for all the tips... ive read these 40 pages over twice now... Im now keeping drums @ around -8, subs a bit lower etc... etc... ending up with a mix peaking around -2 on the master... this does help a lot... but for those of us whos music is just for ourselves, ie: dont want to get professional mastering/ cant afford it, or for whatever reason... after individual sounds are eq'd, cut, compressed if needed, everything is sitting correctly etc... if at this stage, if im not sending it to a professional mastering house, say I add a compressor/limiter to the master channel, just to bring it to life a bit, and to gain a couple dbs in the leftover headroom, even though now drums etc are not hitting where they were before ( -8, etc), but are now peaking higher up... as long as im not driving it too hard to the point of distortion, Is this OK practice just for what I want it for, ie: not sending to labels? or is this missing the point somewhere?

Again thanks for the tips, my mixdowns & workflow have improved heaps with this thread....

now if my home job "mastering" ideas seem to be OK ill be happy

[macc]

Glad it's all helping boss

Simply limit the tune as much as you wish to, without causing distortion.

Make sure that you take advantage of the auto-gain matching function that most limiters have.

As you limit the tune more, it gets louder, right? Most limiters have a function that keeps the sound at the same level, allowing you to hear exactly what damage you are doing without being tricked by the different level. Once you are happy with the sound, you can turn the gain match off and the tune will get louder (mind your ears when you do this by the way!), and you know it isn't mashed up.

If people took advantage of this feature I'm fairly sure we wouldn't hear so many badly mashed up tunes!

[wirez]

Glad it's all helping boss

Simply limit the tune as much as you wish to, without causing distortion.

Make sure that you take advantage of the auto-gain matching function that most limiters have.

As you limit the tune more, it gets louder, right? Most limiters have a function that keeps the sound at the same level, allowing you to hear exactly what damage you are doing without being tricked by the different level. Once you are happy with the sound, you can turn the gain match off and the tune will get louder (mind your ears when you do this by the way!), and you know it isn't mashed up.

If people took advantage of this feature I'm fairly sure we wouldn't hear so many badly mashed up tunes!

What software limiters have this function because I don't recall ever seeing it before?!

[eldoogle]

^Yeah really. That would be very useful to have.

[macc]

What software limiters have this function because I don't recall ever seeing it before?!

Errr, pretty much all of them.

L2 has a little handle inbetween the threshold and ceiling controls that bring them both down together. Xenon has an auto function button (as I recall, not used it for ages) that does it. Elephant you can right click/drag the input to drop the output by the same amount. Similar for Fabfilter Pro-L I think.

You could always just do it yourself by dropping the output by the same amount as the input, though this kills the real time thing.

Ask your limiter's manual, I'm sure it will have the answer

[wirez]

What software limiters have this function because I don't recall ever seeing it before?!

Errr, pretty much all of them.

L2 has a little handle inbetween the threshold and ceiling controls that bring them both down together. Xenon has an auto function button (as I recall, not used it for ages) that does it. Elephant you can right click/drag the input to drop the output by the same amount. Similar for Fabfilter Pro-L I think.

You could always just do it yourself by dropping the output by the same amount as the input, though this kills the real time thing.

Ask your limiter's manual, I'm sure it will have the answer

Cool, I generally use Elephant or Logic AdLimiter, will have to have a play! Nice one Macc

[amphibian]

Well in that case, fuck compressors. Of the 7 years I've been composing music, I only spent 1.5 producing and even less properly mixing. I'm not lazy, just still fairly new to mixing. I thought using the "soft" option on compressors with no gain at all would work even better cause of the gradual compression, but apparently compressors are just purposeless garbage.

You just don't know what compressors are all about If they were useless - they wouldn't be so heavily used, would they?

[amphibian]

What software limiters have this function because I don't recall ever seeing it before?!

Errr, pretty much all of them.

L2 has a little handle inbetween the threshold and ceiling controls that bring them both down together. Xenon has an auto function button (as I recall, not used it for ages) that does it. Elephant you can right click/drag the input to drop the output by the same amount. Similar for Fabfilter Pro-L I think.

You could always just do it yourself by dropping the output by the same amount as the input, though this kills the real time thing.

Ask your limiter's manual, I'm sure it will have the answer

[Ematyael]

So I've been following this thread for a while and it's helped SOOOOO!! much! Thanks to Macc and you all posting these fantastic tips and techniques. I have a couple questions I haven't been able to answer though.

First, how do I get my high-hats and misc percussion to stand out when there's a heavy hitting high end sound or loud melodics at the top end. I can't seem to find a good way to balance out the high ends of my song without one thing or another getting lost.

Second, I am limited on funds so I can't send my songs out to an engineer or anything, but I'd like to get them all cleaned up for an amateur album. How can I make all my songs sit at the same(also the right) volume? I try my best but my songs are all at various volume levels. Also on a similar note, what is the best way to get various parts of a song(ie, a collection of bass sounds, or a group of melodies) to sit at the same volume? I've ususally got them all going through a handful of different effects that usually end up changing levels about, and the synths are usually at separate volumes as well.

Thanks for any help you guys have!
(p.s. I know this is a bit needy, but if anyone wanted to listen through my soundcloud and tell me how horrible my mixing is and how I can get better I would make sweet love to you all night out of gratitude, or just be eternally grateful, your choice.)