#Occupywallstreet >

[pkay]

Right but we don't want to regulate. We want to be douchebag america with a different result... see insanity

You seem to be making a lot of pretty crude assumptions about a massive number of people based on the opinions of a couple of them and then whitewashing the whole movement with your prejudice. The important bits are the things they agree on and the fact that they're causing us to have this conversation at all.

No offense bro but you don't live in the US. You have no earthly clue how predictable and flockish Americans are. I don't speak for all of America, I speak in observation of America.

Those goofy suburbs you have full of weirdos in your country? Imagine a place like Texas.... where we have a suburban population and land sprawl larger than your entire fucking country.

Literally. Dallas/Fort Worth is now millions upon millions of cookie cutter homes, 2.5 children, an SUV, a credit card with $3000 in debt, all sheepishly falling in line.

That is one metro area. Now multiply that by a dozen or so.... now you've got one state... now multiply that by 50.

Now lets add religion in the mix. Not just religion, deep southern baptist, evangelicals, roman catholics dominate this country.

You think Americans want change because they're making a little bit of noise but you're ignoring the flock falling into line.... and as long as that flock exists our government and the corrupt politicians have no urgency to change anything.

[magma]

Dude, read my posts... I agree that most protesters are sheep in any country, I've said that fairly clearly in my posts. Humans are sheep by and large, that doesn't mean they're incapable of forcing change by banding together. Most people on the civil rights marches were sheep. Most people active in Arab Spring are sheep. Most soldiers are sheep. Most office workers are sheep.

You need to stop focussing on individual protesters' views and absorb the exceptionally important fact that society is disgruntled enough for the protest to exist - it's existence is absolutely relevant even if the views of the individuals aren't brilliantly thought through or even in line with the person standing next to them.

It's an enormous display of "Something must be done"... don't make the mistake of assuming that all of the people agree on everything, of course they don't, or that any individuals getting interviewed or calling themselves "leaders" are of any importance, of course they're not - the PROTEST is important. Individual "Tea Party" protesters are often sheepish morons too, but it doesn't mean that the country can ignore their existence... you can't ignore that level of dissent in society no matter if you support it or not.

You're correct I'm not an American. I do, however, work in the industry they're protesting about and I support the occupation fully. The people above me in this industry need to be forced to respect society - if you worked around them perhaps you'd understand. So, no offense "bro" but you're not a banker... you have no earthly clue of all the things that need to change within this industry. Listen to someone who's there every fucking day.

[pkay]

Do you think if consumerism remains the same, the end result can be changed to fit our liking?

[magma]

Do you think if consumerism remains the same, the end result can be changed to fit our liking?

No, I think change has to happen on the supply and demand sides... but regulating the supply of credit more effectively would mean that far fewer economically ignorant people are able to get hoodwinked by predatory financiers promising them consumption without responsibility... that can only be a good thing.

Not everyone has an economics degree and the little man needs protection. The big company? Not so much... they have always and will continue to do a very good job of looking after themselves.

As the protests point out - policy should be directed to favour the 99%, not the 1%. It's really easy if you just weigh it up democratically - who should a democracy work in the interests of? The vast minority?

[magma]

I seem to have answered the same question to you before - are you not reading the replies? If not, I'll stop bothering...

[pkay]

Let's for the sake of discussion say half of the people who were involved in predatory lending were duped malisciously, and half borrowed knowingly outside their means in a mutual beneficial fashion with the lender.

Do you believe those who borrowed outside their means, knowingly, should have that ability regulated away from them? ie government protecting the people from themselves?

[magma]

Let's for the sake of discussion say half of the people who were involved in predatory lending were duped malisciously, and half borrowed knowingly outside their means in a mutual beneficial fashion with the lender.

Do you believe those who borrowed outside their means, knowingly, should have that ability regulated away from them? ie government protecting the people from themselves?

I believe the regulation should stop businesses offering it - the distinction between the willing and ignorant makes no difference, neither would be able to get the credit if it were properly regulated so nitpicking between them really doesn't matter. Neither set of people would exist anymore - society wins! Those willfully putting themselves in unmanageable debt are as irresponsible as the rogue financiers, but they'd be scuppered by the same laws.

As a society we also regulate things like speed limits on the road - if we don't see a speed limit by a school stopping children who don't understand roads as "protecting us from ourselves", I'm not sure why financial regulation as any different. Protecting the economically weak and ignorant from the powerful and informed... it's exactly what society is for.

[LACE]

I'm gonna let you guys bang on, but at this point the system is so fucked that even if we were to withold our cash in a riveting display of American frugality, they'd go straight to our government asking for a bailout, funded by tax payers of course or the whole fucking world economy is gonna come crashing down. Cue panic, WWIII, nuclear winter etc. There needs to be some reform about these government/wall street liasons. I'm no economist, but I commend their efforts. It's about getting a discussion going. They're on a path to cut pensions and medicaid, claiming there's not enough money to support these vital social structures, while rewarding bankers with trillions of dollars. They're consolidating American wealth, pretty soon there's gonna be nothing left..

[magma]

I'm no economist, but I commend their efforts. It's about getting a discussion going. They're on a path to cut pensions and medicaid, claiming there's not enough money to support these vital social structures, while rewarding bankers with trillions of dollars. They're consolidating American wealth, pretty soon there's gonna be nothing left..

Exactly the same situation over here. The tax-paying public are getting "austerity" forced down their necks whilst the financial sector is coccooned in political bubble wrap... it simply can't go on.

[pkay]

Let's for the sake of discussion say half of the people who were involved in predatory lending were duped malisciously, and half borrowed knowingly outside their means in a mutual beneficial fashion with the lender.

Do you believe those who borrowed outside their means, knowingly, should have that ability regulated away from them? ie government protecting the people from themselves?

I believe the regulation should stop businesses offering it - the distinction between the willing and ignorant makes no difference, neither would be able to get the credit if it were properly regulated so nitpicking between them really doesn't matter. Neither set of people would exist anymore - society wins!

this was the point I was working towards.

In the USA, and where I don't think you completely grasp the social state of our country, the ability to reach for the golden ring and fail is an inalienable right. Regardless of who it effects.

It is a fundamental flaw in how we developed as a country. My point all this time has been that we need to change how we act as human beings in relation to each other and recognize how our daily decisions effect not only ourselves but our fellow countrymen.

I'd be fine with occupy wall street if the argument was "lets change wall streets tax code, and in the meantime we need to re-evaluate our every day lives so we insure we don't enable this type of bullshit again" but that's not the argument. It's these guys fucked us lets get em.

[AllNightDayDream]

If anyone here is going to these protests, I strongly encourage you to read this article

[magma]

I'd be fine with occupy wall street if the argument was "lets change wall streets tax code, and in the meantime we need to re-evaluate our every day lives so we insure we don't enable this type of bullshit again" but that's not the argument. It's these guys fucked us lets get em.

Again, you're painting the entire protest with the views of some individuals. Stop focussing on the small issues and look at it as an expression of the disaffected in your society. An anti-war protest will include countless people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job or that the Bilderberg want to rape your Mum - individual protesters don't make the protest.

This is a chance to have a sensible discussion, yet all you seem to want to do is tear the weakest of the crowd apart because you feel politically or intellectually superior to them. It's very easy to write off protesters (Over here, they generally get tarred as "The Great Unwashed" or "Student Wasters") but society writes off or ridicules Protests at its own peril.

[AllNightDayDream]

I'd be fine with occupy wall street if the argument was "lets change wall streets tax code

What does this solve? how does this address the growing income gap?

[pkay]

I'd be fine with occupy wall street if the argument was "lets change wall streets tax code, and in the meantime we need to re-evaluate our every day lives so we insure we don't enable this type of bullshit again" but that's not the argument. It's these guys fucked us lets get em.

Again, you're painting the entire protest with the views of some individuals. Stop focussing on the small issues and look at it as an expression of the disaffected in your society. An anti-war protest will include countless people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job or that the Bilderberg want to rape your Mum - individual protesters don't make the protest.

This is a chance to have a sensible discussion, yet all you seem to want to do is tear the weakest of the crowd apart because you feel politically or intellectually superior to them. It's very easy to write off protesters (Over here, they generally get tarred as "The Great Unwashed" or "Student Wasters") but society writes off or ridicules Protests at its own peril.

Again, not against change, against the method.

In my opinion change does not come without sacrifice and I believe in order to achieve change we will have to give up some of the benefits of wall street in order to control it. This is achieved through altering the consumer side of things as our government has proven incapable of controlling wall street.

My opinion apparently differs from yours but I'm glad you are passionate about your opinion as it's far better than having no opinion at all like the majority of our peers.

[magma]

our government has proven incapable of controlling wall street.

This is the fundamental difference in our view. You believe they're incapable, I believe they've been unwilling up to this point. Just as they were unwilling to give women and blacks the vote until the public forced them or like my government was unwilling to give universal healthcare until public pressure mounted in the 50s... or unwilling to set a minimum wage until the 90s. Change is eternal, I don't see a reason to stop pushing now... strikes me as our generation copping out of its responsibility.

Either way, I'm glad we finally understand each other.

[pkay]

our government has proven incapable of controlling wall street.

This is the fundamental difference in our view. You believe they're incapable, I believe they've been unwilling up to this point. Just as they were unwilling to give women and blacks the vote until the public forced them or like my government was unwilling to give universal healthcare until public pressure mounted in the 50s... or unwilling to set a minimum wage until the 90s. Change is eternal, I don't see a reason to stop pushing now... strikes me as our generation copping out of its responsibility.

Either way, I'm glad we finally understand each other.

I have very little faith in our government. State government on the other hand is a lot more manageable and while I don't hope for failure, I think North America will thrive again once the US collapses.

[magma]

our government has proven incapable of controlling wall street.

This is the fundamental difference in our view. You believe they're incapable, I believe they've been unwilling up to this point. Just as they were unwilling to give women and blacks the vote until the public forced them or like my government was unwilling to give universal healthcare until public pressure mounted in the 50s... or unwilling to set a minimum wage until the 90s. Change is eternal, I don't see a reason to stop pushing now... strikes me as our generation copping out of its responsibility.

Either way, I'm glad we finally understand each other.

I have very little faith in our government. State government on the other hand is a lot more manageable and while I don't hope for failure, I think North America will thrive again once the US collapses.

I can totally understand that... managing a continent as a country has enormous advantages for global influence, but it's got to have seriously challenging logistics issues domestically. I'm willing to accept the non-American card on this one though, I have no idea how it feels to be American and Texan, American and a New Yorker or American and a Hawaiian. It's an interesting experiment to watch, though...

[LACE]

I'm willing to accept the non-American card on this one though, I have no idea how it feels to be American and Texan, American and a New Yorker or American and a Hawaiian. It's an interesting experiment to watch, though...

Taking into account the size of the US, America and England are one in the same. The same regional differences in the US apply to those who are Black British, Indian British, Cambodian British etc. living in England today. It's the same struggle I suppose?

[pkay]

I'm willing to accept the non-American card on this one though, I have no idea how it feels to be American and Texan, American and a New Yorker or American and a Hawaiian. It's an interesting experiment to watch, though...

Taking into account the size of the US, America and England are one in the same. The same regional differences in the US apply to those who are Black British, Indian British, Cambodian British etc. living in England today. It's the same struggle I suppose?

not really. I've lived in about a dozen states over the years... spent the majority of my time in Texas, California, and Missouri. Life in each of those states is entirely different. Being a minority, life in each of those states is entirely different from a minorities point of view. Being employed, working in each of those states was entirely different in each of those. Our sales tax, property tax, etc are all entirely different


Some states you pay taxes... I live in Texas simply based on the fact that I don't have a state tax

http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/ ... isplay.jpg

but then again I live in a state with a decent sales tax

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sales_tax_2009.jpg

then you'd be surprised to know that each state taxes beer differently

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/beer ... 090201.jpg

we have all these large differences economically yet as a country are all expected to abide by the same rules for the good of the nation.

It just doesn't make any sense. If I lived in New Jersey I would take home almost 10% less annually. Just for living and working in New Jersey. So why would i work there? Why would my a business build there?

It really is a chaotic system... the taxes don't even speak to the massive cultural differences... huge segregation still exists

I honestly believe we would be far more successful as a continent if we operated each state as an individual country as the government would be more representative of their people.

[pkay]

to give you a better idea... the distance from Seattle to the southern part of Georgia is about the same as the distance from London to the middle of Sudan

Yet we're all governed as a whole.