Question about mono/stereo basslines

[bmar22]

hey all. Im working on a few tracks and I've noticed that when (using Massive) I go to the voicing tab I switch over the synth to stereo the bass sounds way bigger (obviously). So I did that to all of my synths and now pretty much all of the space is taken up by drums, hats and the glitch basslines.

My question is: is this the norm. I listen to stuff like Noisia, Feed Me, Zomboy, Skrillex, ect ect and their stuff is huge sounding so Im curious if its just stereo wide basses or if there is more to it.

thanks a bunch!

[Anne Droid]

ive actually been experimenting with this as well. I use abletons operator, and im amazed at how much different the sound is with very smal changes in the "spread". I think its similar to the dimension expander in massive.

but I agree.. some tube distortion and a little spread and bass goes from subtle to HUGE.

however it seems like a very fine line between sounding great and sounding tinny and reverberated. Thats what I have found...

[bigfootspartan]

Midrange you can spread, it'll make it sound large. But keep the sub bass mono, as soon as you start spreading it you'll get phasing and it'll lose all it's power.

Also, if you spred everything it'll lose the right effect, and sound muddied. It can be a useful tool, but like anything else you've gotta be sparing with it!

[Warwolt]

Should also remember that when you spread the bass out it can easily become very dominant, and a quick way to move it out of the way a bit if it overshadows everything else is to use a stereoplug that can adjust the width of the stereo (in Ableton we've got Utility plug for that). More mono less huge!

[Teknicyde]

as soon as you start spreading it you'll get phasing and it'll lose all it's power.

its not just that, the human ear cant place sub in stereo space properly and therefor will ignore it/itll 'sound' 'weak' but still centered.

Phase correlation is as much a problem in midranges as it is in subs...

[bmar22]

ok. that def makes sense with midrange basses spreading them out. but then whats the technique in getting those huge wide sound basses without losing some of the power?

[-[2]DAY_-]

um... you make a widened bass... layer it with a non-widened sub? I don't understand what you mean

[hans blix]

I keep my bass in mono, then i duplicate it ... and cut at 100hz, and add a chorus. This widens it, and keeps original power too.

[Triphosphate]

You're confusing me a bit hans. You mean you make your bassline, dupe it and low pass 100hz in mono on the duped track to make your mono sub? This is very close to what I do. I use the same bass for my sub and mids typically, I use multiband compressors to split the frequencies. I recombine the mids and highs after they get their own effects and I apply a standalone dimension expander plugin (it's basically the same as massive's, very handy, forgot what it was called though) on mids and highs, and strictly leave the sub bass mono.

On a related note: does anyone know if using a multiband compressor to split frequencies can introduce phase in the same way an EQ can? If so, what's the best way to avoid this? Linear EQ?

[bmar22]

I keep my bass in mono, then i duplicate it ... and cut at 100hz, and add a chorus. This widens it, and keeps original power too.

ahh I see. so this is really just all about layering. so could I (or better yet should I) take my bassline, duplicate it, and split the frequencies. then take the high frequencies and make them stereo (put effects on them) and then leave the low end part of the bass mono...or is it just a case by case basis?


Just to check my thinking it sounds, like whatever "sound" I have I just need to layer 2 or 3 times and thats how the sound gets bigger. yes?

and I guess this goes along with a tutorial I saw where you stereo image the high frequencies of a dirty bass like Dada Life and then duplicate the lower end and keep it in mono so it just sounds ginormous

[hans blix]

@bmar22 & @Triphosphate

Yeah it's all about layering really ... the chorus layering trick just basically, gives your sub more presence/audibility and makes it so you can "hear" it on laptop speakers and other speakers that don't make sub.

"then take the high frequencies and make them stereo (put effects on them) and then leave the low end part of the bass mono..."

Yup.

"or is it just a case by case basis?"

It sometimes depends. Cos if my track is sparse and the focus is on the sub. Then I would definitely do the chorus trick (btw, the chorus just needs to be on slightly, not too crazy). But my other mid-rangey wobble tracks I wouldn't use this. Cos it'll take away focus from the other stuff going on in the tune. (artistic license coming into play)

[Triphosphate]

It's not a case by case basis, in my opinion, the sub frequencies should never go stereo, (I guess unless you're getting really experimental) the wavelengths are too long for the human brain to distinguish direction of source, so it sounds mono anyhow. Stereo effects on your mids/highs is totally up to taste, really. Just never on the sub frequencies.

And to clarify, you're not 'layering' bass per se, that would introduce phasing.

I'll try to explain this way:

Fx track 1 is my bass, all frequencies.
I route 1 to 2, 3, and 4.
I make fx track 1 NOT route to master.
I put multiband compressors or eq's in 2, 3, and 4, and set them to pass through ONLY lows (2) mids (3) and highs (4) respectively. (track 2 is the sub bass right now)
I compress 2 to get consistent levels and I leave it mono. And route 2 to master.
I put appropriate effects on 3 and 4 and route them to 5.
I compress 5 to glue mids and highs together and route it to the master.

Nothing is layered, just split.

[hans blix]

Yeah I shoulda said that at the beginning tbh!

SPLIT ... not layer per se.

Ch1 - SINE 30hz - 120hz // MAKE MONO
Ch2 - SINE 100hz - 1khz // CHORUS/WIDEN/EFFECT/WHTVR

[bmar22]

It's not a case by case basis, in my opinion, the sub frequencies should never go stereo, (I guess unless you're getting really experimental) the wavelengths are too long for the human brain to distinguish direction of source, so it sounds mono anyhow. Stereo effects on your mids/highs is totally up to taste, really. Just never on the sub frequencies.

And to clarify, you're not 'layering' bass per se, that would introduce phasing.

I'll try to explain this way:

Fx track 1 is my bass, all frequencies.
I route 1 to 2, 3, and 4.
I make fx track 1 NOT route to master.
I put multiband compressors or eq's in 2, 3, and 4, and set them to pass through ONLY lows (2) mids (3) and highs (4) respectively. (track 2 is the sub bass right now)
I compress 2 to get consistent levels and I leave it mono. And route 2 to master.
I put appropriate effects on 3 and 4 and route them to 5.
I compress 5 to glue mids and highs together and route it to the master.

Nothing is layered, just split.

i agree with leaving sub mono. and I guess we do similar things I just dont have FX busses. I will take a bass, duplicate it, EQ the highs of the duplicated bass and then maybe split those left and right or just 'stereo' it. and then Ill just compress/fx whatever on the individual channel. theres multiple ways to skin a cat i suppose.

[bmar22]

@bmar22 & @Triphosphate

Yeah it's all about layering really ... the chorus layering trick just basically, gives your sub more presence/audibility and makes it so you can "hear" it on laptop speakers and other speakers that don't make sub.

"then take the high frequencies and make them stereo (put effects on them) and then leave the low end part of the bass mono..."

Yup.

"or is it just a case by case basis?"

It sometimes depends. Cos if my track is sparse and the focus is on the sub. Then I would definitely do the chorus trick (btw, the chorus just needs to be on slightly, not too crazy). But my other mid-rangey wobble tracks I wouldn't use this. Cos it'll take away focus from the other stuff going on in the tune. (artistic license coming into play)

now does the chorus give your bass more sub? i might be confusing myself.

so just to clarify lets say i have 3 basses. a high freq bass, mid wobbles, and a deep subby bass (but not a sub bass). the highs Ill just split left and right and probably add a low saw to compliment them. the mid wobbles Ill layer, cut EQs, FX ect (and this is where the chorus fx would come into play?) and the subby bass just compress/ distortion maybe EQ and keep mono.

sound correct.


thx everyone for the help.i think i almost got it!.,......im gonna have to get used to bouncing my stuff to audio often haha

[Triphosphate]

Yea there's more than one road to take to reach a destination. You are eating up a little bit more ram by duping the instrument though

@bmar22 yeah! You're getting it! chorus will add slightly detuned copies of the sound, so in effect, yes it will add to your sub. Here's a good chorus definition in laymans terms.

Chorus
The chorus effect is acheived by taking an audio signal and mixing it with several delayed copies of itself and/or several pitch-shifted copies of itself. The resulting sound simulates the sound of several instruments or voices where there is really only one. Stereo chorus produces the same effect, but the chorus effect varies between the left and right channels.

[bmar22]

thanks for the help everyone I really appreciate. ill have something good to show for it soon. all the best

[Teknicyde]

It's not a case by case basis, in my opinion, the sub frequencies should never go stereo, (I guess unless you're getting really experimental) the wavelengths are too long for the human brain to distinguish direction of source, so it sounds mono anyhow. Stereo effects on your mids/highs is totally up to taste, really. Just never on the sub frequencies.

And to clarify, you're not 'layering' bass per se, that would introduce phasing.

I'll try to explain this way:

Fx track 1 is my bass, all frequencies.
I route 1 to 2, 3, and 4.
I make fx track 1 NOT route to master.
I put multiband compressors or eq's in 2, 3, and 4, and set them to pass through ONLY lows (2) mids (3) and highs (4) respectively. (track 2 is the sub bass right now)
I compress 2 to get consistent levels and I leave it mono. And route 2 to master.
I put appropriate effects on 3 and 4 and route them to 5.
I compress 5 to glue mids and highs together and route it to the master.

Nothing is layered, just split.

Triphosizzle thing I cant pronouce - 1
Hans - 0

Spot on man, youve been doing your reading.

Also bear in mind that you said 'or' eq's, in the instance you said (all bands passthrough), the multiband compressor IS an eq, just a linear phase one.

Also, dont fear layering a sub, use it in context with your technique, split your frequencies, mute sub split-channel, replace with sine...
And remember also, a pure sine is the optimum motion for a subwoofer to make.