Back to the core, Sub bass and Drums

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:36 am

Hey there!
Since my mixing skills have hit a brick wall lately, I decided to take a step back. I noticed that the origin of my songs sounding a bit "cheap" and unproffesional is often because the drums are just not really standing out. They just don't sound real, and upfront of the mix.

I try every trick I know about to make the drums feel more dynamic and real. For hats I apply autopanning, Subtle "wobbles" in volume so not every hit has the same volume, stereo enhancement, etc etc. I layer my snares, and make sure it has that hard hitting snap to it using a compressor or a multiband compressor. And my kick is mostly dry, with some saturation and compression. And ofcourse I EQ everything to give it it's own space.

Then I group my hats, snare and kick into a bus channel, and add some very light reverb with a low cut of 800hz and a High cut of about 4Khz (so it does not mudd up the sound) to give a sense of space to the drums. and sometimes some extra (parallel) compression, saturation, etc. You get the Idea. But somehow I just can't seem to get it to sound pro enough. I use high quality samples, so the sample's themselves should not be the problem. Also I use sidechain compression, so it's not like the drums get washed out of the mix... they just sound... amateuristic.

Anyone have some extra tips and tricks for me? Do I need limiting? Or is there anything else I missed?

Last but not least, I wanted to get a quick question out there about the sub bass. Do most of you guys use a 1 octave sub bass, or 2 octaves? I'm still not quite sure about what is better to use... 2 octaves seems to have more of a real tone to it, while 1 octave is mostly just the feeling of your room vibrating.

Refuzed · Post by **Refuzed** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:46 am

"and add some very light reverb with a low cut of 800hz and a High cut of about 4Khz (so it does not mudd up the sound)"

do you mean band passing or what? cause if your cutting everything below 800hz on ur kick that's why they don't thump. you sound like you're donig everything fine but obviously it does depend on the sample. it's all about choosing the right samples in the first place. have u got an example of ur tunes so we can listen?

Kasshern · Post by **Kasshern** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:09 am

Hi for the sound of my drums this tutorial help me a lot .
In the first 3 or 4 minutes he talk about his drums and how he use 3 parallel compression and 2 reverb send.it can help you make your drums stand in the front of your mix
I hope it helps

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:44 am

Refuzed wrote:"and add some very light reverb with a low cut of 800hz and a High cut of about 4Khz (so it does not mudd up the sound)"

do you mean band passing or what? cause if your cutting everything below 800hz on ur kick that's why they don't thump. you sound like you're donig everything fine but obviously it does depend on the sample. it's all about choosing the right samples in the first place. have u got an example of ur tunes so we can listen?

Hey man, thanks for the reaction. When I say "lowcut" I mean on the reverb itself, not the dry signal. I use the Fruity Reverb, which has to knobs at the top, to lowcut and highcut the reverb sound, because I do not want the lower frequenties to get mudded up, and also I do not want to much high frequenties resonating, so I use the high cut for that:

See the first to knobs on the top?

Kasshern wrote:Hi for the sound of my drums this tutorial help me a lot .
In the first 3 or 4 minutes he talk about his drums and how he use 3 parallel compression and 2 reverb send.it can help you make your drums stand in the front of your mix
I hope it helps

Thanks, I will look into this tonight (I can't watch youtube video's at work -_-)

Can anyone answer the subbass question? I will post an example of my drums in a minute.

Refuzed · Post by **Refuzed** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:46 am

ok i misunderstood i thought you meant the whole sample not just the reverb. but yeah lowcutting the reverb is a good idea.

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:32 pm

@Refuzed
no problem mate =).

Here is a little sample of my lastest clip with brand new drums in it. Please don't mind the synths, they are completely random, just for the sake of testing the drums inside of a mix.
Soundcloud

grooki · Post by **grooki** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:38 pm

BaseBass wrote:@Refuzed
no problem mate =).

Here is a little sample of my lastest clip with brand new drums in it. Please don't mind the synths, they are completely random, just for the sake of testing the drums inside of a mix.
Soundcloud

Those drums sound fine to me...

almostskate100 · Post by **almostskate100** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:57 pm

grooki wrote:Those drums sound fine to me...

Agreed...They sound really clean to me

In terms of the sub bass -- I think it's just up to personal preference whether or not you want to have a 2 octave sub or 1. I usually just use one octave, but I've heard a lot of people say that using 2 helps beef up the sub a bit and give it some more power in the mix. You can also try saturating the sub (only a little bit though).

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:06 pm

Hmm.. dunno, I just have a feeling it's still missing something (the drums that is). These drums are mostly inspired by KOAN sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIea0zMPXik

But when I compare them, the drums on their track just seem to be a bit clearer, but still with the punch. Maybe I've just been listening to my own sounds too much the last few days...

@almostskate100
Thanks for the answer on the sub bass. Guess I will just experiment a little. The sample I just placed here is the first one with a 2 octave sub. All my other tracks have 1 octave.

Refuzed · Post by **Refuzed** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:10 pm

Koan osunds drum are HUGE. you can't get away from that, they're spot on with everything, this could be why you feel yours aint upto par, cause ur comparing to koan

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:16 pm

Refuzed wrote:Koan osunds drum are HUGE. you can't get away from that, they're spot on with everything, this could be why you feel yours aint upto par, cause ur comparing to koan

Haha yeah, but if I'm gonna try to get a proffesional sound, I might as well compare it with the big guys right? Problem is, that I'm getting really critical about my drums now. I've been comparing sounds, and building drum sets for the last 2 weeks now... sometimes spending 3 hours a day on a snare for instance. Before I try to make a new full length track... I first want to get the sound right. But maybe I'm aiming to high now...

Refuzed · Post by **Refuzed** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:20 pm

fair play. go thru all your samples and delete the packs that you havn't really used, this should narrow it down a bit for ya

MKRUGGER · Post by **MKRUGGER** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:42 pm

I think you should focus on making your drums sound good to you, instead of comparing them with another artist... You can aim to be as good as another artist, but don't go fine tuning your drums to sound exactly like theirs..

Beyond that, wouldn't the fact that their tracks are professionally Mastered bring out their drums a bit more, and make their shit sound mint? You need a good foundation, and a good mix, but you're listening to an already Mastered and finished track, that's why the drums sound louder and such.. That's what I'd guess.. That and their drums do sound fucking mint altogether, it takes practice, not forum posting.

Try adding in Ghost snares, reverse snares, maybe some subtle percussion sounds.. And mix it well! Because I believe a shitty mix will make your stuff sound shitty, regardless of how good you EQ, and how much reverb you lay on the drums.. You still have to Mix it all together well.. Check out the Moneyshot thread!

These are tips from an amateur by the way, so don't take them too much to heart, but those things are very important.

Your drums do sound fine by the way.. But it will takes years for them to sound the BEST that they can be, because there really is no best, so just get them as good as you can, and go from there..

I think a 1 Octave sub is good enough, that's the point of it, to get your room vibrating, it's a Sub, not for the Midrange!

You could however, use something like Massive to create your sub (Not going to say how, look it up.. ) .. Then EQ out some of the High end, but leave some of the Low-Mid 's and boost the Low End a bit.. You'll get some Hamonics there, and you could even distort it a bit with Camelphat, and a TINY bit of reverb (I don't add reverb, as that can mud it up a bit, but it's all in your taste) .. I use Roughrider compressor on the sub also, makes it sound smoother...

Or just use 3xosc and call it a day.. Your choice, who gives a shit? Just make it sound good to YOU... I've been pushing myself to make music to sound good for me, without the consumer in mind, but myself.. Asking myself if I would listen to it! Because I have a good ear for music, so if it sounds good to me, it'll sound good to others, same for if it sounds like shit to me.

So yeah, good luck.

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:22 pm

Thanks for taking the time to comment =). I agree with you about not comparing to other artists too much. Howerver, right know I'm not really aiming for an original sound, because I'm currently not producing full length tracks. Im merely trying to improve my mixing skills, and for that I really need to have some refference material to see how proffesional producers have shaped the drums in terms of placement and overal sound in the mix. Ofcourse it is important to do your own stuff with the skills you have obtained.

Thanks for your advice!

Phase Down · Post by **Phase Down** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:56 pm

your drums are great don't worry, placement/quality wise, what you're missing is the whole groove imo, too much focus on kick1 snare3.

Sharmaji · Post by **Sharmaji** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:11 pm

reverb on the drum bus, unless it's a ballad and you're mixing Celine Dion, is generally just gross.

You want volume out of your drums? Clip 'em, and then bring 'em back down in the mix. clip your kick to the point where it's entirely RMS-- instant deadmaus. not necesarrily my favorite sound, but a sound a lot of folks want to hear.

and then, of course, just turn everything else down.

BaseBass · Post by **BaseBass** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:22 am

Haha =). Thanks for the tips. I will continue experimenting

eldoogle · Post by **eldoogle** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:42 am

Sharmaji wrote:reverb on the drum bus, unless it's a ballad and you're mixing Celine Dion, is generally just gross.

You want volume out of your drums? Clip 'em, and then bring 'em back down in the mix. clip your kick to the point where it's entirely RMS-- instant deadmaus. not necesarrily my favorite sound, but a sound a lot of folks want to hear.

and then, of course, just turn everything else down.

Do you think reverb on the drum bus is gross because it muddys up the song, detracts punch? It seems like everyone is saying TO use reverb on the send, but I can hear that it makes the drum sound less powerful, which is why I haven't put any on the kicks.

And for the drums, do you mean limit them like crazy, convert to audio and use?

Turnipish_Thoughts · Post by **Turnipish_Thoughts** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:32 am

Drums sound tight to me, if anything the Snare feels a little to 'short' if you know what I mean, completely subjective obviously, but possibly have a longer tail on your snare, so it fills more of its place in the groove. so less of a 'pfs' and more of a 'Ppshhhh' lol

Ignore me though Your drums sound a crap ton better than mine. Love the bass too

eldoogle · Post by **eldoogle** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:52 am

Today I was reading Music Tech and they mentioned soft clipping and distortion on drums, basically what Sharmaji said.

Nice

Back to the core, Sub bass and Drums

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